Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords • Hacker News Board

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#121

Post by levosmetalo » Fri, May 10, 2019, 1:14 PM UTC

setquk wrote: post #110

fj39dkf wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He evicted us because he could rent it out for more money. Something about your comment makes me think there's more to this story.

Nothing at all. Paid on time every time and basically decorated the place. Went on the market for £100/month more the moment the tenancy expired and he evicted us. The guy ran umbrella companies to hide his assets and address and to rip people off, got caught going through our stuff. He’s still a landlord and has been the director of about 12 companies now in the last 20 years all dissolved. Who’s the bad one? Hmm Ed…

> Who’s the bad one? Hmm

And you basically did a disservice to all his future tenants by not reporting him to the police after being caught by you illegally accessing your home and destroying your property? By not reacting you basically silently allowed him to keep doing this. I would understand that he had some kind of power over you and you were afraid to react and report him, but you choose to confront him by being asshole to him, without doing the right thing and reporting him to whatever authority in UK is responsible for this.

Because of that, both of you are bad, though he is a bit worse.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#122

Post by arethuza » Fri, May 10, 2019, 1:14 PM UTC

setquk wrote: post #90

adwww wrote: post #22

When I was last renting (in the UK) I changed my locks the day I moved in, then swapped them back to the original cylinders when I left. I thought it was pretty good practice not to have a door with an unknown number of previous tennants, cleaners, letting agents, landlords etc with access.

I did this as well after having a couple of snooping landlords. Also it's empowering. One rental I had, prior to the tenancy deposit protection scheme I had a serial con artist landlord. At the end of the tenancy, he billed my entire £600 deposit return to three companies he owned. One for gardening, one for cleaning and one for maintenance. This made it difficult for a claim to be placed upon him. This was without e…

I experienced stuff like that from a couple of landlords while I was a student - one of the reasons I was quite happy to buy my first flat at 23 (mind you - that was a long time ago).

Edit: I almost attacked one landlord when I found someone rummaging in a cupboard at night! Landlord was quite indignant when we pointed out he couldn't come and go as he pleased.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#123

Post by boobsbr » Fri, May 10, 2019, 1:18 PM UTC

adwww wrote: post #22

When I was last renting (in the UK) I changed my locks the day I moved in, then swapped them back to the original cylinders when I left. I thought it was pretty good practice not to have a door with an unknown number of previous tennants, cleaners, letting agents, landlords etc with access.

Standard in Brazil.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#124

Post by Twirrim » Fri, May 10, 2019, 1:20 PM UTC

setquk wrote: post #101

Waterluvian wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"My wife decided to add insult to this injury by spreading marmite all around the inside of the letter box." This was the part where you lost my support. That's a bit too petty.

We changed the locks originally because we caught him in the place doing an inspection unannounced. All our clothes had been gone through and the computer turned on. Funny sounding inspection. The marmite was deserved. If you’re going to make someone’s life miserable and insecure for six months then we’re going to roll out the red carpet on pettiness.

Yeah, but it's a complete waste of Marmite. It ought to be illegal to waste such a heavenly thing as marmite like that.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#125

Post by NeedMoreTea » Fri, May 10, 2019, 1:20 PM UTC

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #64

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't security locks common over there? The typical night latch (Yale lock) is super easy to pick, but it wouldn't be easy to get UK insurance without a 5 or 7 lever Chubb lock, or one of the newer security locks. So pretty much everywhere has one - and quite often both. Newer doors tend to have multiple bolts in three places, operated by the single security key. Just a night latch might be used for internal doors,…

Thats because in the USA, the next level after an easy to pick lock is a dog. And after the dog, is a homeowner with a rifle, shotgun, or pistol. Unlike many jurisdictions all through Europe, the US has guns equaling in quantity to that of Somalia or Uruguay. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_g... Given the amount of guns (100+ per 100 people), and that some have a stockpile while others have…

I take the point - but aren't burglaries everywhere mostly when the house occupants are away on holiday (and the dog too), or out at work? Maybe the odd opportunist snatch if someone leaves a window open on a hot night.

We may be unarmed, but I assume at least some UK burglars are put off by an occupied home as it may contain a German Shepherd or large irate guy with a bat handy. The locks are for when I'm out - when I'm in and awake, just turning the handle will get you in the back door!

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#126

Post by Gaelan » Fri, May 10, 2019, 1:23 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #23

The comments seem to be missing the two key aspects: accessibility and surveillance. The smart lock requires you to have a charged, working smartphone that you can use in order to get into your own apartment. One of the claimants is 93 and lacks the manual dexterity to do that. On top of that, smart locks can report when you enter and exit your home to the landlord; and, if under the landlord control, can provide oth…

> The smart lock requires you to have a charged, working smartphone that you can use in order to get into your own apartment.

The landlord claimed (about half way down the article) that there was some sort of code that could be entered to open the door with no phone. Is that not the case?

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#127

Post by mAEStro-paNDa » Fri, May 10, 2019, 1:24 PM UTC

levosmetalo wrote: post #121

setquk wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing at all. Paid on time every time and basically decorated the place. Went on the market for £100/month more the moment the tenancy expired and he evicted us. The guy ran umbrella companies to hide his assets and address and to rip people off, got caught going through our stuff. He’s still a landlord and has been the director of about 12 companies now in the last 20 years all dissolved. Who’s the bad one? Hmm Ed…

> Who’s the bad one? Hmm And you basically did a disservice to all his future tenants by not reporting him to the police after being caught by you illegally accessing your home and destroying your property? By not reacting you basically silently allowed him to keep doing this. I would understand that he had some kind of power over you and you were afraid to react and report him, but you choose to confront him by bein…

Have you considered some of the landlord's actions might not have been illegal? Anyone from the UK that can chime in on this? Is there an authority responsible for this?

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#128

Post by gpm » Fri, May 10, 2019, 1:24 PM UTC

lqet wrote: post #30

adwww wrote: post #22

When I was last renting (in the UK) I changed my locks the day I moved in, then swapped them back to the original cylinders when I left. I thought it was pretty good practice not to have a door with an unknown number of previous tennants, cleaners, letting agents, landlords etc with access.

Is this legal? At least here in Germany, the apartment owner is allowed to enter your apartment using his key in emergency situations. [0] I can imagine that you can be held liable if, for example, a fire breaks out in your apartment, the apartment owner notices it, tries to enter your apartment to extinguish it, cannot enter because of changed lock, and the building burns down. [0] as others have mentioned below, th…

In Ontario, it's explicitly illegal. One of the very few parts of the law here that isn't tenant friendly.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#129

Post by setquk » Fri, May 10, 2019, 1:25 PM UTC

levosmetalo wrote: post #121

setquk wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing at all. Paid on time every time and basically decorated the place. Went on the market for £100/month more the moment the tenancy expired and he evicted us. The guy ran umbrella companies to hide his assets and address and to rip people off, got caught going through our stuff. He’s still a landlord and has been the director of about 12 companies now in the last 20 years all dissolved. Who’s the bad one? Hmm Ed…

> Who’s the bad one? Hmm And you basically did a disservice to all his future tenants by not reporting him to the police after being caught by you illegally accessing your home and destroying your property? By not reacting you basically silently allowed him to keep doing this. I would understand that he had some kind of power over you and you were afraid to react and report him, but you choose to confront him by bein…

Actually it's not quite that easy. If you think anyone even gives a crap about this sort of stuff then you're mistaken. Even today.

Firstly, I spoke to the police and they said they couldn't do anything because I likely couldn't prove he was snooping and couldn't prove that it wasn't against the terms and it wouldn't be worthy of their time investigating it and it was probably a civil or contractual issue. "go see a solicitor". Which I couldn't afford.

Secondly, local housing officer was contacted and I was asked to attend the local council about it and I sat there for 4 hours and was told to go home because they had run out of time. I got a letter apologising and attempts to get a second appointment were fruitless.

This was option three.

This was one of the points in my life I realised there is no magical state run safety blanket who will protect you from dickheads.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#130

Post by bloak » Fri, May 10, 2019, 1:26 PM UTC

Freak_NL wrote: post #113

throwayEngineer wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Running? I don't like carrying keys

You don't have a place to put a single key, but you do lug along a smartphone to unlock the door again? Just put the key wherever you put the smartphone. My running pants came with a special key pocket. Before that I just hung a spare key on an old shoelace around my neck.

A proper programmable lock would let you set a temporary password. You could then leave the house wearing just some cheap clothes and get back into your house even if someone stole your clothes while you were swimming in the lake. Sounds good to me. No smartphone. No Internet. No surveillance.

There would be a high-entropy emergency password in a sealed envelope hidden in your brother's house in case you ever locked yourself out.

But I don't think the market will produce secure programmable locks at a reasonable price until some government regulator lays down a standard that manufacturers can follow.