Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords • Hacker News Board

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#101

Post by setquk » Fri, May 10, 2019, 12:13 PM UTC

Waterluvian wrote: post #98

setquk wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did this as well after having a couple of snooping landlords. Also it's empowering. One rental I had, prior to the tenancy deposit protection scheme I had a serial con artist landlord. At the end of the tenancy, he billed my entire £600 deposit return to three companies he owned. One for gardening, one for cleaning and one for maintenance. This made it difficult for a claim to be placed upon him. This was without e…

"My wife decided to add insult to this injury by spreading marmite all around the inside of the letter box." This was the part where you lost my support. That's a bit too petty.

We changed the locks originally because we caught him in the place doing an inspection unannounced. All our clothes had been gone through and the computer turned on. Funny sounding inspection.

The marmite was deserved. If you’re going to make someone’s life miserable and insecure for six months then we’re going to roll out the red carpet on pettiness.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#102

Post by dsfyu404ed » Fri, May 10, 2019, 12:18 PM UTC

CaptainZapp wrote: post #75

delinka wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How are they going to even know? Because it's a non-standard key with print on it: "Property of X, not to be copied without permission" and because it's a non-standard key, to even get the blanks requires knowing whom to ask for permission to make copies. Think something like US Post Office box keys, or bank safe deposit keys.

"Property of X, not to be copied without permission" Not even that. The keys I was referring to have serial numbers and the blanks are strictly controlled. Only the owner of said serial numbers (usually represented by a card) can order copies directly from the manufacturer or their designated agents. Normal key copy shops wouldn't even have the blanks to furnish copies. I don't think that it's totally impossible to c…

Back in my university days they would only give us one key to a room that was designated for our club. They had the special blanks with the second set of teeth on the inside.

I just found "normal" blanks with the same cross section, whipped up the tooth profile and a holding fixture in some pirated CAD program and took a thumb drive and the blanks down to the machine shop during lab hours.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#103

Post by dsfyu404ed » Fri, May 10, 2019, 12:26 PM UTC

cdolan wrote: post #96

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats because in the USA, the next level after an easy to pick lock is a dog. And after the dog, is a homeowner with a rifle, shotgun, or pistol. Unlike many jurisdictions all through Europe, the US has guns equaling in quantity to that of Somalia or Uruguay. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_g... Given the amount of guns (100+ per 100 people), and that some have a stockpile while others have…

If you’re facts/theory are correct then there should be no burglary events, as it could be assumed all homeowners have guns?

>If you’re facts/theory are correct then there should be no burglary events, as it could be assumed all homeowners have guns?

The capacity for defending one's self and property is not distributed evenly across the US. Some states are bristling with armaments like Switzerland. Others are neutered like the UK. In certain states break-ins not targeting a specific individual for a specific reason are basically nonexistent. In other states criminals have little to fear from the property owner so property crime is more common.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#104

Post by gmueckl » Fri, May 10, 2019, 12:30 PM UTC

mr_luc wrote: post #94

gmueckl wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, during the Seattle "Snowpocalypse" (that is, the few actually cold days in the area last winter), the heater (actually, the AC doubling as heating unit) in my apartment had to work overtime to make up for the bad insulation. The worst offender was the balcony door that was just a normal wooden door with no proper rubber seal around it and even pretty big open gap between it and the floor. The single pane window…

The Pacific Northwest is a poor example there, because as you indicate, the "cold" winter days in the densely populated areas are still pretty mild. The Great Lakes region of the US (like Minnesota, where I live), and some parts of the Northeast, are places that experience considerably more ... 'Scandinavian' extremes of cold, and the houses are built to handle it.

Well, even the regular winter days are cold enough to require heating. And the generally poor insulation of the building leads to considerable thermal losses even in normal winter conditions.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#105

Post by fj39dkf » Fri, May 10, 2019, 12:31 PM UTC

setquk wrote: post #90

adwww wrote: post #22

When I was last renting (in the UK) I changed my locks the day I moved in, then swapped them back to the original cylinders when I left. I thought it was pretty good practice not to have a door with an unknown number of previous tennants, cleaners, letting agents, landlords etc with access.

I did this as well after having a couple of snooping landlords. Also it's empowering. One rental I had, prior to the tenancy deposit protection scheme I had a serial con artist landlord. At the end of the tenancy, he billed my entire £600 deposit return to three companies he owned. One for gardening, one for cleaning and one for maintenance. This made it difficult for a claim to be placed upon him. This was without e…

He evicted us because he could rent it out for more money.

Something about your comment makes me think there's more to this story.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#106

Post by dsfyu404ed » Fri, May 10, 2019, 12:34 PM UTC

sgift wrote: post #97

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats because in the USA, the next level after an easy to pick lock is a dog. And after the dog, is a homeowner with a rifle, shotgun, or pistol. Unlike many jurisdictions all through Europe, the US has guns equaling in quantity to that of Somalia or Uruguay. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_g... Given the amount of guns (100+ per 100 people), and that some have a stockpile while others have…

> Given the amount of guns (100+ per 100 people), and that some have a stockpile while others have none, you're taking your life in your hands if you want to break in and burglarize. Yeah, and you know who has probably one of these guns? The people breaking into your home. And they usually have the first mover advantage, aren't surprised, and so on and so on .. I'd rather have a good lock on my home than risk this as…

>And they usually have the first mover advantage, aren't surprised, and so on and so on

Here's what happened to four dudes who relied on 4:1 numerical superiority and first mover advantage.[0] Home field advantage is still a thing. When one party is in their own home they can't reasonably retreat any further so they tend to put up a pretty good fight. The invading party has better options for disengaging so they usually flee.

[0]https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Three-dead-...

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#107

Post by flarg » Fri, May 10, 2019, 12:35 PM UTC

_delirium wrote: post #43

lqet wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this legal? At least here in Germany, the apartment owner is allowed to enter your apartment using his key in emergency situations. [0] I can imagine that you can be held liable if, for example, a fire breaks out in your apartment, the apartment owner notices it, tries to enter your apartment to extinguish it, cannot enter because of changed lock, and the building burns down. [0] as others have mentioned below, th…

It's legal in the UK for a tenant to change the locks, and there's also no law requiring them to provide the landlord a copy of the key. You do have to allow the landlord in for certain reasons (like maintenance) with advance notice, but you can do that by just being home and letting them in yourself. However, the letting contract might prohibit it, and I think commonly does. It's not a right of the tenant to be able…

I've done this and you are correct. Decent landlords won't mind if you request permission to change the locks.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#108

Post by sethhochberg » Fri, May 10, 2019, 12:35 PM UTC

CaptainZapp wrote: post #48

pjc50 wrote: post #23

The comments seem to be missing the two key aspects: accessibility and surveillance. The smart lock requires you to have a charged, working smartphone that you can use in order to get into your own apartment. One of the claimants is 93 and lacks the manual dexterity to do that. On top of that, smart locks can report when you enter and exit your home to the landlord; and, if under the landlord control, can provide oth…

I don't know what the tenancy law is in NY, but in the UK this is supposed to require the permission of the tenant except in an emergency. I can't speak for America or NY, but Switzerland has exactly the same tenancy law. The landlord must announce a visit to the appartment like 48 hours in advance an he cannot abuse the privilege. Essentially you "own" the rented appartment during your tennancy. Emergencies (i.e. a…

Like most things in America, tenant protection laws vary by state/municipality... in NY the laws are generally strong in favor of tenants, landlords must provide at least 24 hours notice, written, for all non-emergency work and they can only enter during "reasonable" hours, typically interpreted as 9-5 on weekdays. A landlord who fails to honor the rules will likely end up in housing court, which is a very expensive process for them. In NY, all residential property leases use a standard form lease provided by the state, and the landlord cannot add riders that void or limit the tenant protections in the lease. There is no concept of a tenant "owning" the property for the duration of the lease, but the lease does provide a warrant of habitability which includes a right to privacy.

Even in NY though, landlords are allowed to request a key to enter the apartment non-destructively for emergencies or legally notified work. Its common practice here to add an additional interior deadbolt to your apartment front door, so the landlord (or building supervisor) will have one copy of the key for the main lock which any prior tenant could have also had, and you'll provide them a spare key for the interior addon deadbolt you added yourself. The standard lease also explicitly allows using a door chain/slider to prevent even keyed entry wile you are present in the home.

Many other states have no such requirement at all, or allow landlords to place much more limiting language they want into lease riders.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#109

Post by mAEStro-paNDa » Fri, May 10, 2019, 12:37 PM UTC

fj39dkf wrote: post #105

setquk wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did this as well after having a couple of snooping landlords. Also it's empowering. One rental I had, prior to the tenancy deposit protection scheme I had a serial con artist landlord. At the end of the tenancy, he billed my entire £600 deposit return to three companies he owned. One for gardening, one for cleaning and one for maintenance. This made it difficult for a claim to be placed upon him. This was without e…

He evicted us because he could rent it out for more money. Something about your comment makes me think there's more to this story.

Why? I agree some of the actions are taking it too far, but this part is not that far-fetched. It happens.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#110

Post by setquk » Fri, May 10, 2019, 12:37 PM UTC

fj39dkf wrote: post #105

setquk wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did this as well after having a couple of snooping landlords. Also it's empowering. One rental I had, prior to the tenancy deposit protection scheme I had a serial con artist landlord. At the end of the tenancy, he billed my entire £600 deposit return to three companies he owned. One for gardening, one for cleaning and one for maintenance. This made it difficult for a claim to be placed upon him. This was without e…

He evicted us because he could rent it out for more money. Something about your comment makes me think there's more to this story.

Nothing at all. Paid on time every time and basically decorated the place. Went on the market for £100/month more the moment the tenancy expired and he evicted us.

The guy ran umbrella companies to hide his assets and address and to rip people off, got caught going through our stuff.

He’s still a landlord and has been the director of about 12 companies now in the last 20 years all dissolved.

Who’s the bad one? Hmm

Edit: also the place we had after that I rented for 11 years with no problems direct from landlord and they were excellent and we were excellent back.