Is Conference Room Air Making Us Dumber? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is Conference Room Air Making Us Dumber?

#301

Post by eveningcoffee » Thu, May 09, 2019, 12:22 PM UTC

ggreer wrote: post #240

If it is, it's not due to CO2. The US Navy's submarines are run with CO2 levels varying from 300-11,300ppm.[1] The military did plenty of studies in the 60s and 70s and failed to find significant cognitive effects in environments as high as 4% CO2.[2] > Thus, CO2 at 40,000 ppm for 2 weeks did not affect performance on multiple tests of cognitive function in physically fit young airmen, a population probably not unlik…

How did the military reach these CO2 levels in their tests? Were these levels created artificially or through human aspiration?

It might be that CO2 in the air is simply a proxy.

My personal observation is that usually good air quality is reached when CO2 levels are around 600-1000 ppm. Lower it is fresher the air feels.

Re: Is Conference Room Air Making Us Dumber?

#302

Post by eveningcoffee » Thu, May 09, 2019, 12:25 PM UTC

prepend wrote: post #299

ezoe wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe, Military has strong incentive to conclude that CO2 level not affecting the soldier's intellectual and physical activities so they don't need to spend extra cost for submarine to keep the CO2 level low.

I think the military has a strong incentive to not have submarine crews with impaired intellectual and physical activities so they can perform as designed.

If they had then why perform the study? They clearly wanted to optimize this cost.

Re: Is Conference Room Air Making Us Dumber?

#303

Post by eveningcoffee » Thu, May 09, 2019, 12:41 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #72

I've worked in modern steel and glass buildings in the Valley, and I've also worked in old (and drafty) converted warehouses in SF. I never really thought about it, but I definitely get more tired in the steel and glass buildings (which usually have inoperable windows). I work at home now, and while my home is well sealed, I always try to crack the window in my office to let in some fresh air. I'll have to make an ef…

I feel sorry for you.

Sealed rooms only work with mechanical ventilation. Sealed room without proper ventilation is a design failure.

Re: Is Conference Room Air Making Us Dumber?

#304

Post by JohnJamesRambo » Thu, May 09, 2019, 2:15 PM UTC

castratikron wrote: post #275

colechristensen wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I noticed the same when I am sitting near the sensor. I'm thinking though that it is partially due to me essentially breathing onto the sensor and the sensor dynamics having an averaging function so that I'm not sure what the sensor reports and what I breathe in are the same. Repositioning the sensor so it wasn't in the "line of sight" of my breath changed the readings significantly.

Here's a plot. The peaks are when I was in my apartment. The gap in the middle of February was when I went on vacation. https://imgur.com/a/HtyhTzo

That is really cool. Thanks for sharing, I love it when people collect data.

Re: Is Conference Room Air Making Us Dumber?

#305

Post by JohnJamesRambo » Thu, May 09, 2019, 2:21 PM UTC

charlieo88 wrote: post #162

Mistletoe wrote: post #5

I own a CO2 monitor and it is shocking how high it can get in a house with two people just existing. 800 ppm or more. Outside air is 410. In a car with air on recirculate, it was getting to >1220 ppm, a level that impairs decision making and lowers brain function. I try to drive with air on fresh from now on. I don’t doubt the air in our conference room with 20 people gets super high in CO2 as the meeting goes on, an…

For in the car, with the air on fresh, does your monitor indicate the amount of CO as well?

No, only CO2.

Re: Is Conference Room Air Making Us Dumber?

#306

Post by Mistletoe » Thu, May 09, 2019, 2:41 PM UTC

ggreer wrote: post #240

If it is, it's not due to CO2. The US Navy's submarines are run with CO2 levels varying from 300-11,300ppm.[1] The military did plenty of studies in the 60s and 70s and failed to find significant cognitive effects in environments as high as 4% CO2.[2] > Thus, CO2 at 40,000 ppm for 2 weeks did not affect performance on multiple tests of cognitive function in physically fit young airmen, a population probably not unlik…

How do we reconcile the fact that these Navy studies don't seem to match other more modern CO2 studies in the lesswrong thread?

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/pPZ27eZdBXtGuLqZC/what-is-up...

Maybe I'm missing it but it seems like most of the studies I click on there see an effect at CO2 levels that are much less than tens of thousands ppm.

Gwern has this to say about the Navy studies-

"they often were not using sensitive tests of higher cognitive functioning, a broad array of different measurements, and very small sample sizes; I suspect a meta-analysis grouping tasks by domain with some correction for ceiling effects might turn in a very different conclusion than their fairly sanguine conclusion that there are no cognitive impairments I mean the Navy has a very vested interest in saying "submarine CO2 levels are fine" which makes me suspicious from the outset. If other studies corroborated their claims I'd find it more believable.

If what you say is true then there is an almost unprecedented level of being wrong and conspiracy in the current accepted rules and limits for CO2 in indoor air quality. Not to mention the fact that Wikipedia is dead wrong. That seems unlikely.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indoor_air_quality#Carbon_diox...

"The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) considers that indoor air concentrations of carbon dioxide that exceed 1,000 ppm are a marker suggesting inadequate ventilation."

It would be quite bizarre for NIOSH, a division of the CDC to be 15-40x off on how much CO2 is acceptable indoors. I'm assuming like most government regulatory bodies they looked at many studies and formed a consensus about what is safe using the available literature.

Re: Is Conference Room Air Making Us Dumber?

#307

Post by jrockway » Thu, May 09, 2019, 2:44 PM UTC

teekert wrote: post #284

ggreer wrote: post #240

If it is, it's not due to CO2. The US Navy's submarines are run with CO2 levels varying from 300-11,300ppm.[1] The military did plenty of studies in the 60s and 70s and failed to find significant cognitive effects in environments as high as 4% CO2.[2] > Thus, CO2 at 40,000 ppm for 2 weeks did not affect performance on multiple tests of cognitive function in physically fit young airmen, a population probably not unlik…

2 hours in a meeting room is just plain exhausting, I'm 100% certain than I am more willing to compromise or walk out with shitty decisions by the end of it.

Are you sure that's due to CO2 and not just not liking 2 hour discussions with people?

Re: Is Conference Room Air Making Us Dumber?

#308

Post by c0vfefe » Thu, May 09, 2019, 2:48 PM UTC

Thiez wrote: post #236

tempestn wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have been sued for injuries caused while performing CPR, so I could certainly imagine someone being sued for undressing a person (without their consent, obviously) to perform CPR.

You can sue anyone for just about anything. But it doesn't seem like a very winnable case to me. Maybe in some crazy jurisdictions. Many places have 'good Samaritan' laws that protect people who are not medical professionals when they cause injuries during a good faith attempt to safe someone's life. I would assume injuries to someone's modesty are included... At the end of the day, would you rather let a woman in ne…

There's also the court of public opinion to consider, in which actual legal standing is irrelevant. Small comfort if you successfully rebuff a suit but lose your reputation in the process.

Re: Is Conference Room Air Making Us Dumber?

#309

Post by c0vfefe » Thu, May 09, 2019, 2:50 PM UTC

pvaldes wrote: post #266

c0vfefe wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Don't be shy, no time for false modesty, it may cost a life." Or it may cost the rescuer quite a bit when a woman regains consciousness half-naked with a man on top of her.

This should not happen. Another rule is that you must not to put yourself on top of the victim or walk crossing over the body of other people. Is disrespectful and can be dangerous also. You have to sidestep it and approach from one of the sides.

Somehow I doubt that a side position would substantially improve the situation for either party if the woman still feels violated.

Re: Is Conference Room Air Making Us Dumber?

#310

Post by ahakki » Thu, May 09, 2019, 2:58 PM UTC

eveningcoffee wrote: post #302

prepend wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the military has a strong incentive to not have submarine crews with impaired intellectual and physical activities so they can perform as designed.

If they had then why perform the study? They clearly wanted to optimize this cost.

If the study had shown impairment of cognitive functions during normal U-boat operations, maybe they would’ve upgraded the ships with extra scrubbers.