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China backtracked on almost all aspects of U.S. trade deal – sources

reuters.com

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Re: China backtracked on almost all aspects of U.S. trade deal – sources

#91

Post by HillaryBriss »

scarface74 wrote: post #59
HillaryBriss wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there are some narrow interests that favor Trump tariffs. e.g. the United Steelworkers Union: "China ... dumps its excess aluminum and steel on the world market at super-discounted prices. The United States, in conjunction with European allies and others, has repeatedly over the past decade negotiated with China to stop defying the rules it agreed to abide by when it gained entrance to the World Trade Organization in…

“Trump’s steel tariffs cost U.S. consumers $900,000 for every job created, experts say“ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/05/07/trumps-st...

I didn't say it was good for everyone. You said "The trade war isn't helping anyone." I only pointed out that some narrow interest groups favor it because it's helping them.

There are other inefficiencies in the US economy, jobs that are preserved or are high paying solely because existing laws limit competition, limit participation by potential additional workers, etc

The real issue here is not "Have these tariffs caused our economy to deviate from pure efficiency?" It's "Which special groups are allowed to have their own interests protected and extended by law and by government action?" This stuff is happening all over the economy.

Re: China backtracked on almost all aspects of U.S. trade deal – sources

#92

Post by amanaplanacanal »

rrggrr wrote: post #27
awinder wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

theres a lot of reasons for someone to look at both what and how trump is approaching this, and rationally come away less-than-enthused: 1. Poor execution & personnel at odds with each other leaking play-by-play details has led to a lot of market fluctuation and difficulty for the market to price in the "real world". Anyone exposed to this gets a first hand look at the monetary cost of this. 2. Real impacts of the ta…

The facts say differently: GDP growing around 3%. US net exports up about $55b. Unemployment 50 year low. Minority unemployment record low. Non-farm payrolls up by about 3%. Business confidence (Fed Ind Businesses) highest in 45 years. (sources) https://www.whitehouse.gov/trump-administration-accomplishme... https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/07/how-trump-has-set-economic-g...

Presidents (of both parties) like to take credit for those kinds of economic results. In reality the federal reserve and what they are doing with interest rates and the money supply is mostly responsible for economic cycling, not the president.

Re: China backtracked on almost all aspects of U.S. trade deal – sources

#93

Post by Tsubasachan »

rrggrr wrote: post #17

I suspect Xi wants this dispute to continue for internal Chinese reasons. The tariffs impact different sectors and regions in China differently. It may be continued tariffs are reducing overcapacity in a manner that allows Xi to save face internally. It could be the tarrifs are breaking the back of powerful exporting provinces (eg. Jiagnsu) and helping Xi consolidate power. It may also be the case that things need to…

Xi is being publicly called out by Trump. He cannot fold because the Chinese people are at least as patriotic and nationalistic as your average American.

Instead of making this a civilised conference resolving trade issues its a pissing match between two superpowers. This is exactly the situation that the EU has tried to avoid with its own dealings with these two alpha male gorillas.

If we were dealing with rational countries here there would indeed be a deal. But this isn't a trade dispute between the Netherlands and Switzerland.

Re: China backtracked on almost all aspects of U.S. trade deal – sources

#94

Post by scarface74 »

burfog wrote: post #90
scarface74 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the $900K it costs the economy per job. So you are doubting the number because it's from the "liberal media"? In that case what about Forbes? https://www.forbes.com/sites/ikebrannon/2018/07/02/steel-tar...

There are far bigger reasons to doubt it, so the "liberal media" issue is moot. Not that "liberal media" isn't a fine reason, but Jeff Bezos is literally the owner of the Washington Post. He also runs Amazon, shipping lots of Chinese goods. His bias is obvious. This isn't even a political conflict along the liberal/non-liberal axis though, so Forbes doesn't change a thing. I'm sure you've heard of the uniparty, demip…

So there should be some studies somewhere that say the best way to brings jobs to America that in aggregate is beneficial is to impose tariffs and protectionism is to spend money on industries retraining workers?

Are you also in favor of laws in some states that don't allow people to pump their own gas to save jobs?

Re: China backtracked on almost all aspects of U.S. trade deal – sources

#95

Post by jvanderbot »

maxxxxx wrote: post #58
Shivetya wrote: post #2

So basically China's stance is, we cannot change our laws so our bad trading practices must remain in place? While we only get news of trade imbalances between US and China to include all their tariffs and restrictions can someone for the EU or elsewhere chime in with how their nations fare?

“So basically China's stance is, we cannot change our laws so our bad trading practices must remain in place? ” Reminds me of a lot of corporations. “This doesn’t make sense but it’s policy”. Never mind that they wrote the policy themselves.

"this is not profitable so it should not be law".

Yeah I've heard that plenty over here in the US.

Re: China backtracked on almost all aspects of U.S. trade deal – sources

#96

Post by HillaryBriss »

5trokerac3 wrote: post #12
scarface74 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trade war isn't helping anyone. It's costing US consumers, companies, farmers and the stock market. Just a quick search, I couldn't find any mainstream, usually Republican leaning economists, magazines, or newspapers that said it was a good idea.

> I couldn't find any mainstream, usually Republican leaning economists, magazines, or newspapers that said it was a good idea. That's because tariffs aren't a traditionally right wing, "free market" position. This is actually an economic view that Trump shares with Bernie Sanders.

yep. that's what I see too. In addition, Sanders harshly criticized the TPP:

"The Trans-Pacific Partnership is a disastrous trade agreement designed to protect the interests of the largest multi-national corporations at the expense of workers, consumers, the environment and the foundations of American democracy. It will also negatively impact some of the poorest people in the world."

https://www.sanders.senate.gov/download/the-trans-pacific-tr...

And Trump seems to have agreed with that as well.

Re: China backtracked on almost all aspects of U.S. trade deal – sources

#97

Post by toasterlovin »

youarewrongstfu wrote: post #36
toasterlovin wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn’t costing consumers much. I run a company that was affected by the tariffs. If we had kept manufacturing in China, cost of goods sold (COGS) would have gone up by 25%. But COGS are only 50% of the price customers pay for our products. So the price increase to our customers would have only been 12.5%. But we didn’t keep our manufacturing in China, we moved it to Taiwan and Vietnam. As a result, our COGS went up…

In other words the tariffs, like all tariffs, did absolutely nothing but harm the country putting them in place. Brilliant.

All I did was outline the costs to the US. You would have to also consider the benefits before you could come to a conclusion.

Re: China backtracked on almost all aspects of U.S. trade deal – sources

#98

Post by toasterlovin »

pgodzin wrote: post #89
toasterlovin wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn’t costing consumers much. I run a company that was affected by the tariffs. If we had kept manufacturing in China, cost of goods sold (COGS) would have gone up by 25%. But COGS are only 50% of the price customers pay for our products. So the price increase to our customers would have only been 12.5%. But we didn’t keep our manufacturing in China, we moved it to Taiwan and Vietnam. As a result, our COGS went up…

I don't think it's that trivial for most companies to upend their entire supply chain

Emphasis added to my original quote:

> Mostly the tariffs are/were very inconvenient for US business that manufactured in China.

Re: China backtracked on almost all aspects of U.S. trade deal – sources

#99

Post by toasterlovin »

scarface74 wrote: post #56
toasterlovin wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn’t costing consumers much. I run a company that was affected by the tariffs. If we had kept manufacturing in China, cost of goods sold (COGS) would have gone up by 25%. But COGS are only 50% of the price customers pay for our products. So the price increase to our customers would have only been 12.5%. But we didn’t keep our manufacturing in China, we moved it to Taiwan and Vietnam. As a result, our COGS went up…

It isn’t costing consumers much. I run a company that was affected by the tariffs. So you’re generalizing your experience from a “company you run” to a country with a $19.39 trillion GDP....

Mostly my point was about basic arithmetic: 25% sounds like a big deal, but consumers are not paying anywhere near an additional 25% on goods they buy because so much of the retail price of a good is made up of things other than production cost. That is something anybody who has run a business that sells goods can tell you, I was just using my personal experience to illustrate the point.

Re: China backtracked on almost all aspects of U.S. trade deal – sources

#100

Post by jak92 »

spectramax wrote: post #44
CWuestefeld wrote: post #24

Related to this and the censorship story already on the front page: China is censoring internal news about these trade controversies. From family over there I know that the general public isn't seeing this on TV or anything. And even messages on WeChat are being taken down (my wife has had several private postings removed)

I don’t know why and I am not a Chinese citizen but this kind of thing bothers me deeply. I hope Streisand effect takes over China in a self-propelling feedback loop until this whole show comes crashing down. People of China deserve better (once they’re a solid middle class and taken out of poverty).

> People of China deserve better (once they’re a solid middle class and taken out of poverty).

You are implying that the current policies will bring them out of poverty which in a sense contradicts your first statement.

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