Chinese Media Warn WeChat Admins: "You Can Be Arrested for Group Chat" • Hacker News Board

Re: Chinese Media Warn WeChat Admins: "You Can Be Arrested for Group Chat"

#151

Post by philipov » Fri, May 03, 2019, 2:58 PM UTC

boomboomsubban wrote: post #95

thaumasiotes wrote: post #63

> YOU are of opinion it would be proper to establish a company of firemen in Nicomedia, [similar] to what has been practised in several other cities. But it is to be remembered that societies of this sort have greatly disturbed the peace of the province in general, and of those cities in particular. Whatever name we give them, and for whatever purposes them may be founded, they will not fail to form themselves into f…

If you look at the history of many early US volunteer firefighter organizations, he wasn't exactly wrong. They often became gangs of a sort, taking advantage of people who they were "helping" and competition between groups often got violent. That's how Boss Tweed got his start in politics.

It's also how Marcus Licinius Crassus made his fortune.

Re: Chinese Media Warn WeChat Admins: "You Can Be Arrested for Group Chat"

#152

Post by CompanionCuuube » Fri, May 03, 2019, 4:54 PM UTC

jachee wrote: post #126

edejong wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Answering for GP: 1. Education (how to form solid arguments and how to view topics from multiple sides) 2. Plurifomity. By combining people from different social-economic groups. Basically an anti divide and conquer which state sponsored media have driven us towards. 3. Acceptance. Everyone picks their fruits of freedom of speech. Just because the fruits of one are the pains of others does not mean we should throw th…

The "problem" with your #2 is that only one side wants that. The other side fears losing their privilege/capital/power/reputation and cares not a whit for those they consider sub-human. Putting some foxes into the henhouse won't go well for the hens when it's dinner time.

> The "problem" with your #2 is that only one side wants that.

If this were true, only one side would have wedge issues.

Re: Chinese Media Warn WeChat Admins: "You Can Be Arrested for Group Chat"

#153

Post by kelnos » Fri, May 03, 2019, 5:21 PM UTC

yifanl wrote: post #143

DevKoala wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly disagree. There are many ways to combat misinformation that do not involve censorship. There is nothing to applaud about oppression driven government censorship.

If I may use a bit of reduction, isn't the logical conclusion of freedom of speech that truth simply doesn't matter? If every idea is acceptable, and I cannot face consequences for anything I say, then what difference is there between the statements "Apples are fruit" and "Apples are the square root of 45"? Certainly, that's not the level of free speech we're at, but all this clamouring for unrestricted free speech m…

You can certainly face consequences, just the government cannot be responsible for imposing them. I'd much prefer that bad and dishonest ideas be dismissed and the speakers censured by their community rather than jackbooted thugs forcing silence at gunpoint.

It's obviously not a perfect way of going about things, but I think it definitely errs in the right direction.

Re: Chinese Media Warn WeChat Admins: "You Can Be Arrested for Group Chat"

#154

Post by _frip » Fri, May 03, 2019, 6:34 PM UTC

thewhitetulip wrote: post #115

_frip wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty interesting comment. Let me see a reputable source which backs up 'anti pm message arrest under national security act'. I googled those and found just one arrest in a state which said > Asked why Shinde had been suspended, Sharma said, “He has not been suspended just for the message. In the past, too, complaints were received against him for favouring certain political party person and showing political inclin…

You seem to have taken only one source Google "whatsapp admins arrested Modi" First link: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ndtv.com/karnataka-news/wha... Tdlr; Karnataka WhatsApp grp asmin arrested for morphed photo of the PM

Well looks like I'm blind because I find no mention of the national security act in the sources you linked as well. You're trying so hard. Oh well..

Re: Chinese Media Warn WeChat Admins: "You Can Be Arrested for Group Chat"

#155

Post by dang » Fri, May 03, 2019, 7:13 PM UTC

_iyig wrote: post #122

dang wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent referred to "Chinese commenters" (and "ward off" was bad enough), but your comment seems to imply that they're all "CCP astroturfers". That's against the site guidelines. Would you mind reviewing them? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Obviously there are real issues to be discussed here, but to do so well means we have to get good at not doing things that kill real discussion, and denigrati…

I don’t know what the comment to which you’ve replied said originally, but it’s true that China pays thousands of people to astroturf comments on the Internet. This fact has been established by the international press and also by the Chinese government. Furthermore, people in China aren’t stupid, and many are aware of this phenomenon as it is quite prevalent on the domestic Chinese Internet (Weibo, WeChat, etc). Are…

Everyone knows that's a real phenomenon. The issue I was addressing was people's tendency, unfortunately very common, to conflate every Chinese commenter, indeed anyone advocating a Chinese perspective, with CCP astroturfers. That's a serious problem on HN. (I don't think it was colanderman's intention to do this and I'm sure that's why he edited his comment after I replied to it.)

The temptation is strong, when encountering views one dislikes, to regard the person expressing them as disingenuous and pushing some sinister agenda. This is why the site guidelines explicitly say "Please don't impute astroturfing or shillage. That degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried, email us and we'll look at the data."

As geopolitics between China and the West heat up for reasons totally beyond this site, users here need to remember that HN is an international community where all are welcome. Being welcome, among other things, means not being slurred because of your national origin, language, race, and so on. It's nice that HN feels like a small and intimate place, but it's not a living room—when you post here, you're broadcasting to an audience of millions. Many come from very different backgrounds than you or I or any of us does, and they have just as much a right to be here as you and I and any of us does.

The image of "warding off Chinese commenters", which you invoked in your comment upthread, is dismaying and exactly what we don't want here. People need to listen to each other more, not less, when there is distance between them. I don't want to be part of any site that works against that.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Chinese Media Warn WeChat Admins: "You Can Be Arrested for Group Chat"

#156

Post by drb91 » Fri, May 03, 2019, 7:26 PM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #138

pmontra wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So thaumasiotes was sarcastic here > Women getting together is fine. Not once have groups of women ever been known to rebel against the government. I agree with the sarcasm. Women are generally less problematic than men but they rebel when it matters. Another example, Rosa Parks.

Speaking for myself, no, that statement is entirely serious. Women are not now and never have been a direct threat to any government. They don't fight wars. Would Trajan have known this? Of course. Compare your descriptions of suffragettes' terrorist activities with the research on how effective terrorist campaigns are at even getting their favored policies implemented. (And then, of course, ask yourself whether Traj…

Women work. Withholding labor is a threat to the state. Women were a crucial part of the civil rights movement. Women are absolutely a threat to the state.

Re: Chinese Media Warn WeChat Admins: "You Can Be Arrested for Group Chat"

#157

Post by dang » Fri, May 03, 2019, 7:26 PM UTC

kkarakk wrote: post #106

dang wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent referred to "Chinese commenters" (and "ward off" was bad enough), but your comment seems to imply that they're all "CCP astroturfers". That's against the site guidelines. Would you mind reviewing them? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Obviously there are real issues to be discussed here, but to do so well means we have to get good at not doing things that kill real discussion, and denigrati…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party Wu Mao Dang is common enough and well known enough that it has a wikipedia page(a very thoroughly edited and referenced one)...it IS real discussion.

That is extremely well known—so much so that people rush to repeat it on every relevant, and many an irrelevant, occasion. Please see my reply at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19821356.

The issue here was conflating all Chinese commenters with CCP astroturfers and representing them as vampires who need to be "warded off". It's great that you're concerned with discussion integrity on HN—so are we, very much—but please take care that garden-variety prejudice doesn't leach into this. That happens so easily as to be a bigger problem than the astroturfing people complain about, which they frequently imagine to be happening based on zero evidence. I've written about this a great deal if anyone wants more: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...

Re: Chinese Media Warn WeChat Admins: "You Can Be Arrested for Group Chat"

#158

Post by yifanl » Fri, May 03, 2019, 7:30 PM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #153

yifanl wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I may use a bit of reduction, isn't the logical conclusion of freedom of speech that truth simply doesn't matter? If every idea is acceptable, and I cannot face consequences for anything I say, then what difference is there between the statements "Apples are fruit" and "Apples are the square root of 45"? Certainly, that's not the level of free speech we're at, but all this clamouring for unrestricted free speech m…

You can certainly face consequences, just the government cannot be responsible for imposing them. I'd much prefer that bad and dishonest ideas be dismissed and the speakers censured by their community rather than jackbooted thugs forcing silence at gunpoint. It's obviously not a perfect way of going about things, but I think it definitely errs in the right direction.

It's just that on the scale of the internet, the breakdown tends to be: 3X of people come out in support of your ridiculous idea, X people actively disagree and 100% - 4X ignore it, where X is some small number.

To an outside observer, you must have a good idea, after all, you have so many more people in agreement than detractors!

Which basically makes it impossible for "the community" to hand you any consequences.

Re: Chinese Media Warn WeChat Admins: "You Can Be Arrested for Group Chat"

#159

Post by dang » Fri, May 03, 2019, 7:37 PM UTC

drb91 wrote: post #131

dang wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't post unsubstantive comments here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Is this a joke? Half the damn comments on this site are entirely unsubstantiated bullshit and you’re enforcing the rule on THIS comment which doesn’t even make a claim to be substantiated? If you’re claiming it is without substance you’re simply erasing sex, which is OBVIOUSLY A SUBSTANTIVE CONCEPT.

Sure, and the GP was not a substantive comment. It was a generic, off-topic, flamebait tangent. Why flamebait? Because people can't discuss that topic without yelling at each other, and certainly not when the trigger is an information-free one-liner.

Speaking of yelling, can you please not use allcaps for emphasis on HN? This is in the guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

By the way, "substantive" isn't the same as "substantiated". It just means containing information that would be of interest to a curious reader. For example, if I describe an anecdote from my experience, that can easily be substantive without there being any need to substantiate it (e.g. by proving that it happened).

Re: Chinese Media Warn WeChat Admins: "You Can Be Arrested for Group Chat"

#160

Post by dang » Fri, May 03, 2019, 7:40 PM UTC

paavoova wrote: post #98

dang wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't post unsubstantive comments here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I have posted and do frequently see "unsubstantive" comments, but somehow the mere connotation of gender is a flag. From a historical perspective, such a question in even its simplest form is entirely valid given the nature of gender roles in societies. Are/were conspiring women's groups more or less feared than men's? I don't know myself, and my comment was sincere in that regard.

Gender isn't a flag per se. The problem is that invoking it with a generic, informationless one-liner is almost always going to be flamebait. Not just gender—this is true of any divisive topic. If you add something interesting and thoughtful to the discussion, it's a different story. That's welcome. You just need to express it in a flame-retarding way, not the internet equivalent of a lit match.

All this is covered by the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. We didn't come up with these rules in a bubble bath! They've all been hammered out by the brutal processes of the internet forum.