Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice' • Hacker News Board

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#61

Post by lostlogin » Wed, May 01, 2019, 5:51 PM UTC

mises wrote: post #60

anonu wrote: post #36

Ghosn's handling by the Japanese is utterly despicable. No habeas corpus ... no due process. Ghosn is credited with a stunning corporate turnaround and creating billions of dollars of value for a Japanese company and the Japanese people. I am certain foreign corporations who do business in Japan are thinking long and hard about the implications and potential risks of operating there. To be clear - I am not saying Gho…

At some point, foreign nations are different and we just have to deal with it. We got habeas corpus and other processes from the Magna Carta back in the eleventh century B.C., and the resultant English Common Law shaped the justice systems of America and other nations. It is not fair of us to expect all justice systems to align with ours. For an extreme example of this issue, look at the Middle East. They have simply…

> For an extreme example of this issue, look at the Middle East. They have simply never taken to democracy.

This isn’t helped by foreign interference in every election they have. Even the borders, arbitrary lines drawn up by colonial powers, contribute to the problem as the forced groupings don’t suit anyone except for some colonial empire a long time ago. If the meddling stopped for a decent duration democracy might have a chance.

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#62

Post by dopamean » Wed, May 01, 2019, 5:59 PM UTC

on_and_off wrote: post #42

anonu wrote: post #36

Ghosn's handling by the Japanese is utterly despicable. No habeas corpus ... no due process. Ghosn is credited with a stunning corporate turnaround and creating billions of dollars of value for a Japanese company and the Japanese people. I am certain foreign corporations who do business in Japan are thinking long and hard about the implications and potential risks of operating there. To be clear - I am not saying Gho…

>Ghosn is credited with a stunning corporate turnaround and creating billions of dollars of value for a Japanese company and the Japanese people This should have absolutely no bearing on how the justice system handles him.

Seriously! I know it happens but I feel like it's rare to see someone seem to explicitly argue that someone's business success should be a mitigating factor when considering their crimes.

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#63

Post by TazeTSchnitzel » Wed, May 01, 2019, 6:02 PM UTC

mises wrote: post #60

anonu wrote: post #36

Ghosn's handling by the Japanese is utterly despicable. No habeas corpus ... no due process. Ghosn is credited with a stunning corporate turnaround and creating billions of dollars of value for a Japanese company and the Japanese people. I am certain foreign corporations who do business in Japan are thinking long and hard about the implications and potential risks of operating there. To be clear - I am not saying Gho…

At some point, foreign nations are different and we just have to deal with it. We got habeas corpus and other processes from the Magna Carta back in the eleventh century B.C., and the resultant English Common Law shaped the justice systems of America and other nations. It is not fair of us to expect all justice systems to align with ours. For an extreme example of this issue, look at the Middle East. They have simply…

Iran is in the Middle East and had a democratic revolution. (Perhaps somewhat betrayed by their strange bedfellow, but still.)

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#64

Post by stcredzero » Wed, May 01, 2019, 6:08 PM UTC

mises wrote: post #60

anonu wrote: post #36

Ghosn's handling by the Japanese is utterly despicable. No habeas corpus ... no due process. Ghosn is credited with a stunning corporate turnaround and creating billions of dollars of value for a Japanese company and the Japanese people. I am certain foreign corporations who do business in Japan are thinking long and hard about the implications and potential risks of operating there. To be clear - I am not saying Gho…

At some point, foreign nations are different and we just have to deal with it. We got habeas corpus and other processes from the Magna Carta back in the eleventh century B.C., and the resultant English Common Law shaped the justice systems of America and other nations. It is not fair of us to expect all justice systems to align with ours. For an extreme example of this issue, look at the Middle East. They have simply…

At some point, foreign nations are different and we just have to deal with it.

Inherent human rights are universal. The closer the world comes to this ideal, the better life is for more people.

For an extreme example of this issue, look at the Middle East. They have simply never taken to democracy, and a good number of people are of the opinion it is simply an issue with their culture.

According to the level of democracy in nations throughout the world published by Freedom House and various other freedom indices, the Middle Eastern and North African countries with the highest scores are Israel, Tunisia, Turkey, Lebanon, Morocco, and Kuwait.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_in_the_Middle_East

Democracy, to the extent which it's established in Europe and the United States, is the result of a long process. Many of the Middle Eastern countries are still dealing with their mainstream religion claiming to override all laws and national sovereignty. By that measure, they are over a dozen generations behind the west in that process.

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#65

Post by stcredzero » Wed, May 01, 2019, 6:12 PM UTC

mafribe wrote: post #47

azernik wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Specifically, the German Constitution was drafted by parties associated with the Weimar coalition, and very much reflects the lessons learned from the fall of the Weimar Republic.

Yes, that's also what I though. The new German constitution was heavily based on the Weimar constitution, but the parts that made Weimar unstable were replaced so those failure modes no longer apply, e.g. Weimar's destruktives Misstrauensvotum was replaced by konstruktives Misstrauensvotum , cf [1, 2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_of_no_confidence#German... [2] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misstrauensvot…

According to Leonard Peikoff, the laws of the Weimar Republic which touched on Human Rights all had an "out" for the government to suspend rights in case of a national emergency or "for the common good." Is this accurate and is this still the case today?

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#66

Post by stcredzero » Wed, May 01, 2019, 6:14 PM UTC

hamilyon2 wrote: post #58

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Japan is a really weird country, on one hand it's the safest country How do you know it is safe if you can easily be wrongly convicted, but no statistic about the country shows that?

Criminals think seven, no, seventy times before doing anything that could possibly upset japan national on Japanese soil. This is how it is that safe.

Criminals think seven, no, seventy times before doing anything that could possibly upset japan national on Japanese soil.

This is how it is that safe.

Or, the criminals are organized and have connections and unspoken agreements with the authorities, existing in a kind of truce.

(EDIT: In essence, the seven to seventy times thinking over has been enshrined and institutionalized.)

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#67

Post by stcredzero » Wed, May 01, 2019, 6:19 PM UTC

AcerbicZero wrote: post #45

I'm not going to tell the Japanese how to run their society, primarily because I'm not Japanese, they're a sovereign nation, and there is no evidence that the system I'm currently subjected to is any better or worse. If the Japanese people want to change this, and want external support to change this, that is an entirely different discussion from what was in this article.

there is no evidence that the system I'm currently subjected to is any better or worse

There's plenty of evidence in the form of the many people who want to come here, and in the form of the many people who have come here and established successful happy lives. My family history is evidence. Inherent, universal human rights are the right side of history. The history of the world shows this.

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#68

Post by stcredzero » Wed, May 01, 2019, 6:20 PM UTC

noego wrote: post #53

> During detention, both were subject to extensive questioning by prosecutors without an attorney present. Videotapes of Ghosn’s questioning — a new feature added in the Criminal Procedure Reform law in 2016 in direct response to documented abuses — were made available to his attorneys who were present at the detention center, but lawyers were not permitted in the room where questioning took place. > The system must…

"We're all doing it, so you better do it too" isn't a particularly compelling argument.

That's not the argument. The real argument is from principle. The principle of inherent human rights.

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#69

Post by stcredzero » Wed, May 01, 2019, 6:25 PM UTC

fzeroracer wrote: post #35

socksindrawers wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn't riot, they were attacked and defended themselves. Look at any video from the event.

You're saying the people that participated in the Unite the Right rally, who conspired to commit violence and escalate an already violent event and who were members of what is essentially a terrorist group were just defending themselves? No, they weren't attacked. They were the aggressors. They have a history of being aggressors. They openly admit to being violent and aggressive.

who conspired to commit violence and escalate an already violent event and who were members of what is essentially a terrorist group were just defending themselves?

I like the principle you are espousing here. The people who commit violence, trying to inject/normalize violence and intimidation into the US political system, should be treated as a terrorist group.

They were the aggressors. They have a history of being aggressors. They openly admit to being violent and aggressive.

People who fit the description given by the above three sentences should be treated as a terrorist group. (1 - Aggressors. 2 - History of aggression. 3 - Openly admit to being violent and aggressive.) If you are espousing this principle, I wholeheartedly agree!

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#70

Post by _cs2017_ » Wed, May 01, 2019, 6:39 PM UTC

b_tterc_p wrote: post #59

_cs2017_ wrote: post #54

Edit: I just realized that the nearly 100% conviction rate is only for those who go to trial. A third of the people who are detained are released without trial. So ignore this post: my main assumption (that arrest is similar to conviction) was incorrect. --- Maybe one way to think of the Japanese justice system is that the trial happens before the defendant is arrested. After all, the conviction rate is nearly 100%,…

It’s mostly because their system is underfunded so they don’t bother going to court unless a win is guaranteed.

Interesting. Wouldn't that imply that a lot of crimes are not investigated, and/or suspected criminals are let go?