Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice' • Hacker News Board

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#41

Post by on_and_off » Wed, May 01, 2019, 4:33 PM UTC

ConcernedCoder wrote: post #17

sandworm101 wrote: post #5

I don't see the problem. Extended detention and repeated interrogation is normal around the world. Visit Rikers island and look at how long people are held there prior to trial (years). The focus on confessions isn't a Japanese thing. Look at how many americans/canadians/brits/auzzis agree plea deals, a form of confession. Repeated questioning isn't torture. In the USA it is true that police have to stop asking quest…

My unpopular opinion: Questioning someone longer than they want to provide answers, when that same person is unable to leave the interview is a form of torture -- change my mind.

Not going to actually.

The Merriam-Webster definition above is weak.

One discussion around torture with my philosophy professor (thankfully the french engineering cursus has one or two interesting classes) really stuck to my mind. We were discussing a text where a french general that had practiced torture in Algerie. He said something that amounts to "I have asked my soldiers to electrocute me so I could see how it feels like, it is not that bad so I felt ok about using it on algerians". It misses the whole point of torture : that you totally lose control, which is where the agony comes from. Anecdotally, I have also been briefly electrocuted by accident once. The pain was indeed not that bad.

But I have not been tied to a chair and subjected to somebody electrocuting me for as long as they like.

This kind of repeated pain is what is impossible to resist to for very long. Not to mention that any sensation can be used that way, tickling is also a form of torture.

So I can see why you can construct that forcing somebody to answer questions, possible very hard ones about somebody close to them that just died, can also be a form of torture.

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#42

Post by on_and_off » Wed, May 01, 2019, 4:34 PM UTC

anonu wrote: post #36

Ghosn's handling by the Japanese is utterly despicable. No habeas corpus ... no due process. Ghosn is credited with a stunning corporate turnaround and creating billions of dollars of value for a Japanese company and the Japanese people. I am certain foreign corporations who do business in Japan are thinking long and hard about the implications and potential risks of operating there. To be clear - I am not saying Gho…

>Ghosn is credited with a stunning corporate turnaround and creating billions of dollars of value for a Japanese company and the Japanese people

This should have absolutely no bearing on how the justice system handles him.

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#43

Post by afthonos » Wed, May 01, 2019, 4:37 PM UTC

ConcernedCoder wrote: post #17

sandworm101 wrote: post #5

I don't see the problem. Extended detention and repeated interrogation is normal around the world. Visit Rikers island and look at how long people are held there prior to trial (years). The focus on confessions isn't a Japanese thing. Look at how many americans/canadians/brits/auzzis agree plea deals, a form of confession. Repeated questioning isn't torture. In the USA it is true that police have to stop asking quest…

My unpopular opinion: Questioning someone longer than they want to provide answers, when that same person is unable to leave the interview is a form of torture -- change my mind.

You’re taking a known-bad word (“torture”) and attaching it to something you disagree with, getting free mileage for your position.

So, without using “torture”, what is the position of yours you’re challenging us to change?

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#44

Post by [deleted] » Wed, May 01, 2019, 4:45 PM UTC

on_and_off wrote: post #42

anonu wrote: post #36

Ghosn's handling by the Japanese is utterly despicable. No habeas corpus ... no due process. Ghosn is credited with a stunning corporate turnaround and creating billions of dollars of value for a Japanese company and the Japanese people. I am certain foreign corporations who do business in Japan are thinking long and hard about the implications and potential risks of operating there. To be clear - I am not saying Gho…

>Ghosn is credited with a stunning corporate turnaround and creating billions of dollars of value for a Japanese company and the Japanese people This should have absolutely no bearing on how the justice system handles him.

[deleted]

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#45

Post by AcerbicZero » Wed, May 01, 2019, 4:47 PM UTC

I'm not going to tell the Japanese how to run their society, primarily because I'm not Japanese, they're a sovereign nation, and there is no evidence that the system I'm currently subjected to is any better or worse.

If the Japanese people want to change this, and want external support to change this, that is an entirely different discussion from what was in this article.

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#46

Post by yarrel » Wed, May 01, 2019, 4:56 PM UTC

deugtniet wrote: post #10

mafribe wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aside, not relevant to the article discussed here. constitution that was essentially written by Americans I cannot speak about Japan, but that's historically false for Germany. If you look at the list of participants in the main events that drafted the West German constitution such as the Rittersturz-Konferenz [1] and the Verfassungskonvent auf Herrenchiemsee [2], then you'll see that all participants are German. Nat…

My constitutional knowledge on the German constitution is a bit rusty, but I guess you hit the nail on the head when you say: 'Naturally, the allies had to agree'. The Allies were the ones that required these conferences and approved of the Germans that went there. I guess the English and the French had some say, but really the big dog of the allies was the US. So I stand by my statement.

In Soviet Russia, England, France and America ally with you!

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#47

Post by mafribe » Wed, May 01, 2019, 5:00 PM UTC

azernik wrote: post #34

mafribe wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aside, not relevant to the article discussed here. constitution that was essentially written by Americans I cannot speak about Japan, but that's historically false for Germany. If you look at the list of participants in the main events that drafted the West German constitution such as the Rittersturz-Konferenz [1] and the Verfassungskonvent auf Herrenchiemsee [2], then you'll see that all participants are German. Nat…

Specifically, the German Constitution was drafted by parties associated with the Weimar coalition, and very much reflects the lessons learned from the fall of the Weimar Republic.

Yes, that's also what I though. The new German constitution was heavily based on the Weimar constitution, but the parts that made Weimar unstable were replaced so those failure modes no longer apply, e.g. Weimar's destruktives Misstrauensvotum was replaced by konstruktives Misstrauensvotum, cf [1, 2].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_of_no_confidence#German...

[2] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misstrauensvotum

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#48

Post by mc32 » Wed, May 01, 2019, 5:06 PM UTC

anonu wrote: post #36

Ghosn's handling by the Japanese is utterly despicable. No habeas corpus ... no due process. Ghosn is credited with a stunning corporate turnaround and creating billions of dollars of value for a Japanese company and the Japanese people. I am certain foreign corporations who do business in Japan are thinking long and hard about the implications and potential risks of operating there. To be clear - I am not saying Gho…

Japan isn’t acting exceptionally with Ghosn. That’s their regular operating procedure.

Ghosn allegedly arranged this overt/covert payment system because allegedly he was unhappy that compared to euro and American auto execs, he was being under compensated.

This scheme if true is unlawful. Euro and American auto execs get paid above board and since there is no need for dual streams (because if you can command 200 million and you can get it, you don’t have to be shamed about it.).

In Japan it’s improper to be overcompensated but in order to be on par with other execs’ pay Ghosn arranged this overt/covert compensation system.

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#49

Post by SkyBelow » Wed, May 01, 2019, 5:09 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #5

I don't see the problem. Extended detention and repeated interrogation is normal around the world. Visit Rikers island and look at how long people are held there prior to trial (years). The focus on confessions isn't a Japanese thing. Look at how many americans/canadians/brits/auzzis agree plea deals, a form of confession. Repeated questioning isn't torture. In the USA it is true that police have to stop asking quest…

> Look at how many americans/canadians/brits/auzzis agree plea deals, a form of confession.

There are also done under threat.

"Plea guilty to X and take 6 months in prison, or we will charge you with Y which carries 10 years in prison. If you choose the second option we will give you an overworked public defender who loses 90% of the time."

In effect, it is punishing people for insisting on their right to a jury trial.

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#50

Post by 2calazm » Wed, May 01, 2019, 5:14 PM UTC

anonu wrote: post #36

Ghosn's handling by the Japanese is utterly despicable. No habeas corpus ... no due process. Ghosn is credited with a stunning corporate turnaround and creating billions of dollars of value for a Japanese company and the Japanese people. I am certain foreign corporations who do business in Japan are thinking long and hard about the implications and potential risks of operating there. To be clear - I am not saying Gho…

Counter-argument: that's how most suspects are handled in Japan (sadly), but people care about it only now that it affects a rich westerner, as you comment demonstrates ("stunning corporate turnaround and creating billions of dollars of value").