Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice' • Hacker News Board

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#51

Post by [deleted] » Wed, May 01, 2019, 5:15 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #48

anonu wrote: post #36

Ghosn's handling by the Japanese is utterly despicable. No habeas corpus ... no due process. Ghosn is credited with a stunning corporate turnaround and creating billions of dollars of value for a Japanese company and the Japanese people. I am certain foreign corporations who do business in Japan are thinking long and hard about the implications and potential risks of operating there. To be clear - I am not saying Gho…

Japan isn’t acting exceptionally with Ghosn. That’s their regular operating procedure. Ghosn allegedly arranged this overt/covert payment system because allegedly he was unhappy that compared to euro and American auto execs, he was being under compensated. This scheme if true is unlawful. Euro and American auto execs get paid above board and since there is no need for dual streams (because if you can command 200 mill…

[deleted]

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#52

Post by edmundsauto » Wed, May 01, 2019, 5:23 PM UTC

rmah wrote: post #29

ConcernedCoder wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My unpopular opinion: Questioning someone longer than they want to provide answers, when that same person is unable to leave the interview is a form of torture -- change my mind.

Your request is, at its heart, a question about the definition of the word "torture". The pedestrian definition of "torture" as per the Merriam-Webster dictionary is: 1: the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure 2: a) something that causes agony or pain; b) anguish of body or mind 3: distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument I…

It makes more sense if you think of torture as a gradient, not a binary.

2 hours of questioning in a room? Not that torturous. 60 days, 12 hours a day, even if your basic needs are met? Pretty bad.

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#53

Post by noego » Wed, May 01, 2019, 5:25 PM UTC

> During detention, both were subject to extensive questioning by prosecutors without an attorney present. Videotapes of Ghosn’s questioning — a new feature added in the Criminal Procedure Reform law in 2016 in direct response to documented abuses — were made available to his attorneys who were present at the detention center, but lawyers were not permitted in the room where questioning took place.

> The system must change.

> First, every suspect should have the right to consult a lawyer as soon as the case is in the hands of prosecutors, and questioning should be prohibited in the absence of an attorney.

The article makes no attempt whatsoever to explain why the above change "must" be made. I'm on the fence on this matter, but the article just sounds like a sanctimonious scolding of Japan for not doing what other Western countries are doing.

"We're all doing it, so you better do it too" isn't a particularly compelling argument. In fact, given how much more effective their criminal Justice system is compared to America's, I would err on the side of keeping up their good work.

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#54

Post by _cs2017_ » Wed, May 01, 2019, 5:26 PM UTC

Edit: I just realized that the nearly 100% conviction rate is only for those who go to trial. A third of the people who are detained are released without trial. So ignore this post: my main assumption (that arrest is similar to conviction) was incorrect.

---

Maybe one way to think of the Japanese justice system is that the trial happens before the defendant is arrested. After all, the conviction rate is nearly 100%, so in some sense the actual trial is just a formality. From that perspective, it's not surprising that defendants may be detained without bail for weeks: the system treats them as if they are already convicted.

It seems to me that with such a system, it's far too easy to convict an innocent person: after all, the decision is made by prosecutors, who are usually incentivized to err on the side of conviction (both by career pressures and by personal predisposition).

Do we know whether Japan has a really high false conviction rate? It's probably very hard to answer, since it's unclear how anyone could collect such statistics.

If it turns out that false convictions are rare in Japan, it may imply the prosecutors are actually trying to discover the truth rather than convict. Which would be a very interesting deviation from any other justice system I know of.

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#55

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC » Wed, May 01, 2019, 5:35 PM UTC

Thaxll wrote: post #40

Japan is a really weird country, on one hand it's the safest country, on the other it has old laws / weird mentality about some modern concepts for society, ex: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_child_abduction_...

> Japan is a really weird country, on one hand it's the safest country

How do you know it is safe if you can easily be wrongly convicted, but no statistic about the country shows that?

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#56

Post by sctb » Wed, May 01, 2019, 5:37 PM UTC

yarrel wrote: post #46

deugtniet wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My constitutional knowledge on the German constitution is a bit rusty, but I guess you hit the nail on the head when you say: 'Naturally, the allies had to agree'. The Allies were the ones that required these conferences and approved of the Germans that went there. I guess the English and the French had some say, but really the big dog of the allies was the US. So I stand by my statement.

In Soviet Russia, England, France and America ally with you !

Could you please just post thoughtfully and informatively?

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#57

Post by teachrdan » Wed, May 01, 2019, 5:39 PM UTC

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #55

Thaxll wrote: post #40

Japan is a really weird country, on one hand it's the safest country, on the other it has old laws / weird mentality about some modern concepts for society, ex: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_child_abduction_...

> Japan is a really weird country, on one hand it's the safest country How do you know it is safe if you can easily be wrongly convicted, but no statistic about the country shows that?

I believe they are referring to Japan's low rate of violent crime: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Japan#Statistics

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#58

Post by hamilyon2 » Wed, May 01, 2019, 5:42 PM UTC

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #55

Thaxll wrote: post #40

Japan is a really weird country, on one hand it's the safest country, on the other it has old laws / weird mentality about some modern concepts for society, ex: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_child_abduction_...

> Japan is a really weird country, on one hand it's the safest country How do you know it is safe if you can easily be wrongly convicted, but no statistic about the country shows that?

Criminals think seven, no, seventy times before doing anything that could possibly upset japan national on Japanese soil.

This is how it is that safe.

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#59

Post by b_tterc_p » Wed, May 01, 2019, 5:43 PM UTC

_cs2017_ wrote: post #54

Edit: I just realized that the nearly 100% conviction rate is only for those who go to trial. A third of the people who are detained are released without trial. So ignore this post: my main assumption (that arrest is similar to conviction) was incorrect. --- Maybe one way to think of the Japanese justice system is that the trial happens before the defendant is arrested. After all, the conviction rate is nearly 100%,…

It’s mostly because their system is underfunded so they don’t bother going to court unless a win is guaranteed.

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#60

Post by mises » Wed, May 01, 2019, 5:45 PM UTC

anonu wrote: post #36

Ghosn's handling by the Japanese is utterly despicable. No habeas corpus ... no due process. Ghosn is credited with a stunning corporate turnaround and creating billions of dollars of value for a Japanese company and the Japanese people. I am certain foreign corporations who do business in Japan are thinking long and hard about the implications and potential risks of operating there. To be clear - I am not saying Gho…

At some point, foreign nations are different and we just have to deal with it. We got habeas corpus and other processes from the Magna Carta back in the eleventh century B.C., and the resultant English Common Law shaped the justice systems of America and other nations. It is not fair of us to expect all justice systems to align with ours.

For an extreme example of this issue, look at the Middle East. They have simply never taken to democracy, and a good number of people are of the opinion it is simply an issue with their culture. This is why nation-building fails there. Japan is so to a lesser degree. They Westernized more due to losing WWII to America, but are still different. It's not our job to play world police.