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It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

nytimes.com

221–230 of 339 posts

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#221

The problem with French is that the French are very sensitive to mistakes. If I speak bad English (I am Russian), everybody is still happy, the worst thing can happen is I’ll get corrected, and in 99.9% of cases it’s not even that. If I speak bad French with a French person... may God have mercy upon my soul. Especially if I forgot to say bonjour/bonsoir first (abomination! burn the heretic!)

If you do this while making it clear via subtext that you've messed up the difference between liver pâté and foie gras, you might as well get a cab right to the airport before you're deported.

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anki may very well be one of the best applications ever made. I have been using it for about a year and a half for Korean, and now I'm memorizing kanji characters with it. My goal is to memorize 2,136 kanji within 4-5 months and I fully believe it's possible with Anki if I don't miss a day of reviews. However, anki is the most useless app ever if you miss reviews. 1-2 days is fine, but you're hurting yourself otherwi…

I had not previously heard of Anki. In briefly looking at the site it sounds very interesting. Can you describe what your daily routine is like in using it?

Let me first describe my initial routine, and how it spiraled into me quitting anki entirely. Then my current routine which actually works.

When I started learning Korean, I grabbed anki + Evita's 5k words deck. It's a pretty good deck, but lacks sentence samples. I use the mac osx app at home and the ios app on the go. The ios app is $20 but you can use ankiweb.net to do reviews. The android app is free.

For about six months I did anki just about every day, @ 20 new words/day. This took me anywhere from 30-50 minutes depending on my focus. It always took longer if I missed the previous day, because then I would have to re-do the newly-learned words (1-3 days interval). I had to commute on the bus every day so I was able to easily knock out anki as I just forced myself not to use reddit/HN before doing anki.

However after a certain point I had missed a few days, which made the next anki cycle take longer. It was frustrating, and caused me to miss more days.. Eventually I had so many reviews piled up that I didn't even want to open anki at all.

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How did I fix this? For starters, I used a custom session to knock out all the 400+ backed up review cards at once. It took me a good 3 or 4 hours. Next, I reduced the new daily card limit to 10. I think 20 is unsustainable unless you are consistently studying at least 3-4 hours daily. Since I work and also study Korean grammar/resources it was just too much.

Next, I changed the default system from "mixed review" (new cards + review cards) to "review cards first". This way even if I don't have the time or energy, I can still knock out the daily reviews. If done right it can be as short as 5-10 minutes depending on how many reviews you have for that day. It's not ideal but still far better than you backsliding on your learned words.

For beginners you can use premade decks, just make sure they have good reviews, and are ordered so you learn words like "mom" before you learn "diplomacy". If you google anki + $language deck, there are recommended ones on reddit usually. That's how I found the core2k japanese deck, which may be the best I've used so far.

However after that point you really ought to be making your own decks. Through your study you should be finding new words; write these down and add them to anki but be prudent about it. I made the mistake of learning advanced and niche words before learning "circle" and "foggy", which are way more useful to know. Also, add sample sentences. It's not really helpful to know a word but not the context when it is used.

In anki you can add custom fields for card types, so I added ones for grammar type, notes, sample sentences, and hanja. I also made a color card with custom html and css styling to let me practice memorizing color words. You can look into cloze deletion cards, I have heard they're good but have not used them myself.

Tip: You can bulk import anki cards from csv files. I maintain a spreadsheet and add them every so often.

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Nowadays I use 2 decks: my personal korean one @ 5 words/day and nihongoshark kanji @ 20 kanji/day. The reason being I am focusing more on memorizing 2k kanji right now. I do the korean one while taking the bus home from work and then I do the kanji one right away at home or at a cafe.

Hopefully this clarified things, otherwise let me know if you have any questions. Anki's manual documentation is actually very good so I recommend reading that.

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#224
post #21

> If required, I can read French books. Not reading books will limit your vocabulary. If you read when required, you don't read.

I agree. Ms Druckerman needs to read a lot more books. She should make a point of reading the classics of French literature starting with something simple like "Le Petit Prince", then Maupassant and slowly work her way up to "Les Miserables" which will take years, but she has the rest of her life to do this. Even if she does not absorb everything, she should press on. She should do this reading plan on a e-reader. I've been glancing at the comments here and no one mentions the fact that e-readers are a great way to learn a language. Why? Because getting the definition of a word by touching it is way easier than old-fashion dictionaries. She should also highlight the word she does not know and when she is done with the book email herself the highlights which e-readers allow you to do. In this manner she will build up her own personal vocabulary list. This plan will require some discipline, but it's what you have to do if you want to be more fluent. Technology makes it easier than it used to be thanks to e-readers and online dictionaries.

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#225
I also have an anecdotal point, i.e. myself.

I'm an English-native speaker living in a French-speaking part of a country with a number of national languages. I speak fluent French, and I suspect Americans/British would call my German fluent too, but it isn't in my view. I have small bits of other languages.

To qualify fluent French is hard without sounding like a "humblebrag", but, I insist on doing French for everything locally and am often more comfortable in French than my local friends are in English.

I feel like the author is both simultaneously making excuses and being overly hard on herself. If the expectation is to learn French to the level of les immortels de l'académie française... yes, I know she did not say that, but this is a standard to which any non-native will always fall short. The complaints she makes that there is ever-more-specific vocabulary, new gaps and having words that simply don't stick in your mind are simply all part of my daily life. It takes an enormous, persistent effort and continual use to really get good at a language.

A possible difference between myself and the author (although I'm unsure, given her past ability in Portuguese) is that I started learning French when I was 9, had the good fortune to have one good French teacher for a year who taught me everything I've ever needed for languages (learn grammar by heart, as much vocab as you can and seek to immerse yourself as much as you can), I worked on my languages outside of school and I moved to my current country in my mid-20s. I don't have the fear of being wrong other people have mentioned.

The author writes the article as if French specifically is difficult, but the only real point she makes that diverges from other languages is the existence of l'académie française. I actually agree that French specifically is difficult for English speakers (and my German speaking friends believe it is difficult for them as well). Where I am there are large numbers of Italian, Portuguese and Spanish immigrants and they integrate far more successfully and learn better French, statistically, than other nationalities. Their languages are all from the romance family and have closer structure and form than to English or German. Concepts that are fairly rare in English, such as the subjunctive (English: if I were bilingual) are very important in French. The structure of a French sentence is typically different to how English sentences are structured, such that a direct translation will almost always sound a bit foreign. There are a large number of false friends. Gendered nouns are a foreign concept to English speakers and the only way to get this right is to learn them with the noun. Similarly, verbs can take à or de for their indirect objects and again you can only learn this, it is almost impossible to guess. These are still challenges for romance language natives, but less so.

However, on the side of the author being overly hard on herself, the reverse of the above is also true. France is a comparatively monolingual country and I have acquaintances there to whom I can only speak in French, as they never pursued a foreign language. Not all French speakers who speak English have a full mastery of it: I'm helping some of my local friends study for their exams and some of them have extreme difficulty switching out of the French way of thinking. Those that do still trip up on the little details, like "I am in the train" because "I am on the train" translated into French means literally on top of the roof, and "I am thinking to write on hackernews" instead of "I am thinking of writing on hackernews" because the gerund does not exist in French; the infinitive form takes its place. I am not surprised to hear the French often think they are bad at French - in my native country, many people are very bad at English.

Outside the author's specific problems and the particular difficulty of French for English speakers, the difficulty of learning languages for English native speakers is due to the hegemony of English language and culture. There is a far greater incentive for others to learn English. My local friends hate films dubbed in French (actually so do I, it's usually very poor quality) so they grew up with English films with subtitles in French (VO instead of VF). They listen to English music and tag their photos with English words they like on instagram. The efforts of l'académie française to introduce quotas for French music (https://www.franceinter.fr/societe/quel-quota-pour-la-chanso...) and promote the French language are in conflict with the fact that, at least where I am, masters level courses and above are taught in English and many good jobs either require it or list it as an advantage. For a young European today, learning English opens up a lot of opportunities and there is an enormous amount of easy, enjoyable material from which to learn.

I've no idea how good the author's French truly is, but if she's understanding a first aid course I am going to guess pretty good. In my view she is being overly defeatist and unfair on herself. I have no doubt it is easier to start young, but I also believe that setting too much store the studies she mentions ("studies say I'm losing my ability to learn languages, my French is not perfect, well, I should give up") is unhelpful. If in 20 years she still lives in France, I think she would regret it if she stopped trying to improve now.

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#226
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not what they said that was rude. It's the way they said it. Also I doubt that French is objectively harder to understand when spoken poorly than most languages. Especially when you consider tonal languages like Vietnamese and Mandarin.

Harder, I don't know. Hard, yes.

Difficulty in understanding non native speakers is largely subjective. It depends heavily on the perception of the listener.

Basically if the listener believes that it is difficult, it will be. Additionally, the harder the listener tries to engage with and understand the non-native speaker, the easier it becomes.

French could be unique among languages, but my strong suspicion is that if what you describe is true for most French speakers, it's mostly due to a widespread cultural perception that non-native French speakers are hard to understand rather than objective difficulty.

There is a professor at Georgia State University who's primary research focus is on this topic if you're interested in reading more.

http://www2.gsu.edu/~eslsal/cv.htm

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#227
post #203

Key answer: "And though I live in France, I’m not immersed enough. I use French for work, but I speak lots of English too, including with my kids and husband. I don’t have an “école horizontale” — a romantic partner with whom I speak only French." I've lived abroad in multiple countries and have met a lot of people trying to learn the language. Without fail, you absolutely have to have either a full-time job in the l…

>I've lived abroad in multiple countries and have met a lot of people trying to learn the language. Without fail, you absolutely have to have either a full-time job in the language, or be romantically involved with someone in the language (without falling back to English) and spend a ton of time with them. That's simply the only way you'll get enough hours of exposure in. I've met many people who have learnt to speak…

Agreed. There's a a few guys on /r/languagelearning who learned Italian to a C1 level without ever stepping foot in the country, or being married to a native. It can be done, it's just more difficult.

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who rely on wit and charm as their social lubricant need it. I remember one place I worked had an exchange program between labs, we had a French girl in ours who seemed very shy and withdrawn, but the colleague who'd been to the French lab the year before (and was fluent in French) said she was an absolute riot and the soul of any party in France.

Very few french folks who live in France like to speak any other language, regardless of their objective level. Those who went abroad are better in this. The excuse is always the same - "my level is not so good" - which is mostly not true, they are perfectly understandable and speak fine. Maybe they don't like their accent, but this is not any blocker for a good conversation. Very personal experience for past 8 years…

I was watching a basic italian video last weekend as I'm visiting Tuscany soon and the teacher made an excellent point that vocab matters so much more than grammar to begin with.

We'd all understand 'I the toilet need', and most languages have about 1000 everyday words, so just learn them and you'll be able to make yourself understood, don't worry about the grammar too much to begin with, or not at all if you're just travelling there.

Perhaps not so true of some languages, but certainly most Romantic and Germanic ones.

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#229
post #203

Key answer: "And though I live in France, I’m not immersed enough. I use French for work, but I speak lots of English too, including with my kids and husband. I don’t have an “école horizontale” — a romantic partner with whom I speak only French." I've lived abroad in multiple countries and have met a lot of people trying to learn the language. Without fail, you absolutely have to have either a full-time job in the l…

>I've lived abroad in multiple countries and have met a lot of people trying to learn the language. Without fail, you absolutely have to have either a full-time job in the language, or be romantically involved with someone in the language (without falling back to English) and spend a ton of time with them. That's simply the only way you'll get enough hours of exposure in. I've met many people who have learnt to speak…

Let me clarify: get beyond intermediate proficiency, which is what the article was about. I thought that was understood from the context, sorry.

So it really depends on what you mean by "leaning to speak a language". You can learn to speak at an intermediate level just by taking courses for a couple of years, dedicated study with books/tapes, etc. But I don't mean that.

I mean getting to the point where it being a foreign language becomes a non-issue. Where you can travel to the country and interact fully in any social conversation, normally understanding every single word (i.e. at the same level of your native language) and speaking with appropriate vocab and grammar so everybody understand every word of yours. Without having to constantly ask for clarification, or just "not get" half of it, or constantly re-explain what you meant using other words because people were confused the first time you said something.

They're worlds apart. And that real fluency just absolutely requires thousands and thousands and thousands of hours of constant real-life interaction (and real-time correction, whether from friends or coworkers or romantic partners) in the language. There aren't any shortcuts to that.

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#230

It seems to me that foreign language learning is an area where computer technology has clearly miserably fallen short of its potential. Apps like Duolingo and Babel are nice, but they seem to me more oriented toward making the user feel good about making progress then about achieving mastery in any useful time frame. Flashcard tools like Anki and Tinycards are nice, but they lack enough readily available content to b…

The problem is that the tools you need are "listening to and interacting with people in the target language". Human language is a problem of interpreting the creative social signals of other human beings, and there's no way to automate that. With the Web, YouTube and internet radio, the actual amount of target-language material that a person can expose themselves to is hugely, hugely more available than it was 20-30…

The fact that digital tools can't be used to achieve total native-level fluency shouldn't be used as a reason not to try to improve what's available. It should be possible at least to use digital tools to learn to listen to and understand foreign language media at a useful level... I'd love to be able to watch a movie in the language I'm studying and understand 90% of what's going on. But that seems like an impossible dream given the available tools and my current rate of progress.

If I could reach just that goal, I'd be delighted to explore other more personally immersive avenues for taking my language skills to the next level.

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