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It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

nytimes.com

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Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#181

Post by crazygringo »

Key answer: "And though I live in France, I’m not immersed enough. I use French for work, but I speak lots of English too, including with my kids and husband. I don’t have an “école horizontale” — a romantic partner with whom I speak only French."

I've lived abroad in multiple countries and have met a lot of people trying to learn the language. Without fail, you absolutely have to have either a full-time job in the language, or be romantically involved with someone in the language (without falling back to English) and spend a ton of time with them. That's simply the only way you'll get enough hours of exposure in.

Also you can learn English fluently without living in an English-speaking country, but only by spending basically all your free time watching English TV/films and listening to music. Not just every so often, but you make consuming English content your life.

If you're American living abroad but are married to another American and your job is mostly in English, it doesn't matter that you live in the country -- I've never seen anyone in that situation master the language. It just doesn't give you the necessary thousands and thousands and thousands of hours of exposure, and because it's low-level exposure, you also quickly reach the point where you're forgetting as many words as you're learning, so it's not even cumulative -- you just reach a plateau. There's even an academic name for it, just Google "intermediate language plateau".

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#182

Post by thorwasdfasdf »

tambre wrote: post #39
imtringued wrote: post #16

It's just a matter on how much time you spend learning the language. Even if you only consider the time you spent in school merely learning your own native language those school lessons will add up to thousands of hours. How many adults, who have already "learned" a foreign language, dedicate 6 hours per week purely on further improving their skills in that language for 12 years? If you are worried about not knowing…

What website/application would you recommend for spaced repetition of vocabulary? I've found the changing Windows logon screens quite nice, since every other day or so there's a new beautiful picture along with a few bubbles of text in German, enabling me to learn a few new words (though I'll probably forget most of them).

If you want a Spaced Repetition vocabulary quizzing for German, you might try: https://eardoor.com I created it just for listening practice and spaced repetition vocabulary practice: 1 hr/ 1 day/ 1 week. No sign in/sign up required.

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#183

Post by dgudkov »

imtringued wrote: post #16

It's just a matter on how much time you spend learning the language. Even if you only consider the time you spent in school merely learning your own native language those school lessons will add up to thousands of hours. How many adults, who have already "learned" a foreign language, dedicate 6 hours per week purely on further improving their skills in that language for 12 years? If you are worried about not knowing…

I suppose it's hard to learn French when it's the first foreign language to learn. I managed to get a decent level of French (B2) by studying 3 hours per week for 2 years. I was 35+ back then. French was my second foreign language after English.

I actually like speaking French (which is now far not as good as it used to be) when possible. Learning French and the French culture has definitely changed my perception of the world. "Joie de vivre" is a beautiful concept that is sorely lacking in money- and work-obsessed North America (except Quebec).

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#184

Post by onli »

intertextuality wrote: post #153
onli wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not like it's actually possible to comfortably read french books when you learn the language, with their specific grammatical tenses only used in literature. I speak French fluently and at home but I'd be incapable to read a complicated book in that language (while I'm absolutely able to read English books and do that all the time, and speak English way less often).

You don't get better at what you don't do. English books use different registers, vocabulary, and grammatical tenses than found in everyday speech also. Basically every language has differences in formally printed books and daily speech. And it's not like you have to read dense texts only. There are plenty of short books, or books with lighter material, that learners can definitely read. It's a very good way to disco…

Written English matches spoken English almost 1:1. Written French could as well be a different language (hyperbole, but not that much). "Just read books" is just not good advice in this case. Reading comics would work, maybe.

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#186

Post by inferiorhuman »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #120
cced wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to be nitpicky, but to be precise, “de rien” translates to “from nothing”. Similar expressions in english are “no worries”, “no problem”, or “you’re welcome” . As for speaking a foreign language, you need to take the jump. Know that, you are likely to be judged. However, there are people who find joy in seeing others speak their language and do so in a nurturing environment. You just need to find those people and…

Your translation is word-for-word correct, but I've never heard somebody say "from nothing" in English in a situation where you might say "no worries", "no problem", or "you're welcome". I have heard "It's nothing" though, so I think his translation is fine. Perhaps people don't use it that way in the dialects of English you know?

Your translation is word-for-word correct, but I've never heard somebody say "from nothing" in English in a situation where you might say "no worries", "no problem", or "you're welcome".

From nothing is an overly literal translation. You'll hear it in Spanish for sure as de nada (of/from nothing) or por nada (literally for nothing) depending on context though.

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#187

Post by cydonian_monk »

_yawn wrote: post #172
fatnoah wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in NH where a fair number of people (half of my own family included) are fluent in Quebecois French and also took 4 years of French in high school. One summer between junior and senior years, I took a road trip to Montreal and tried out my French. I was thoroughly embarrassed and lived the OPs nightmare. The residents I spoke with seemed actively offended by my French and would smile condescendingly and spe…

People in Quebec are actively hostile to other languages in general, mostly for historical reasons. Probably not the best place to get started haha

It also doesn't help that French and Quebecois French are different dialects to the point of almost being different languages. We "offended" our entire office in Montreal when we rolled their telephony system into our headquarter's PBX and added localization for IVRs, Voicemail and whatnot using prompts recorded by a Parisian. I could understand the French French, the Quebecois was..., well, honestly about as different as street Spanish in Mexico and the Columbian Spanish I learned early in life.

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#188

Post by nemetroid »

sisu2019 wrote: post #47

I actually think that for her not letting go of English is the biggest obstacle. You won't be properly immersed if any significant part of your live still happens in your native tongue. In my student exchange year this was very noticeable: all of us Europeans decided to not speak our native languages among ourselves while the large group of Brazilians kept speaking Portuguese with each other. At the end of the year t…

> I actually think that for her not letting go of English is the biggest obstacle. You won't be properly immersed if any significant part of your live still happens in your native tongue.

I agree. Despite Swedish and English being very similar, my experience is that native English speakers are among the slowest to pick up the language, and most reluctant to use it.

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#189

Post by foldr »

inferiorhuman wrote: post #180
intertextuality wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes non-English speakers, when someone tries to learn their language past a basic degree, can be a bit rude even unintentionally. I have had a good native Korean friend quite innocently (although randomly) point out that although I rarely make syntax errors I don't speak idiomatically at all and make weird constructs sometimes. Which makes sense, given my almost 2 years of study, but I would never think of sayi…

I have had a good native Korean friend quite innocently (although randomly) point out that although I rarely make syntax errors I don't speak idiomatically at all and make weird constructs sometimes. Sure, I find myself doing the same thing with the Spanish language — especially in a country with very different slang than the US. Even in English. Even in America. Think about how many ways there are to say soda. They'…

>Perhaps you should, how else would they learn?

Telling someone who speaks a language at an intermediate level that they don't always speak idiomatically is pointless - they already know that.

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#190

Post by purplezooey »

hluska wrote: post #95

This is anecdotal and I am a sample of one, so do with this as you will. I have learned to speak French at two particular times. When I was very young, my Grandma Yvette often spoke French to me and I spent three years in French immersion. Now, I am an adult who barely speaks the language, but I have a daughter who I badly want to bless with the French language. So, I’m learning again... I have noticed two things. Th…

One of my favorite French phrases is Je dis ça, je dis rien
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