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Why don't we have Wayland on Raspberry Pi yet? (2018)

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Re: Why don't we have Wayland on Raspberry Pi yet? (2018)

#181

Post by meruru »

hollerith wrote: post #150
cbdumas wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes definitely! Things have come a long way in 10 years, in my opinion. If you are looking for something more "set up and forget about it" though I would definitely recommend Ubuntu over Arch. I use Arch because I (usually) enjoy tinkering and customizing and setting things up exactly how I want. Edit for a little more detail: I used Ubuntu for a long time on my desktop and actually did quite a bit of gaming on it. M…

I ran Arch for a few years before leaving Linux 10 years ago.

You'll feel right at home then.

Re: Why don't we have Wayland on Raspberry Pi yet? (2018)

#182

Post by curt15 »

chmln wrote: post #135
floatboth wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Screen tearing, bad performance, bad touchscreen support (not independent of mouse cursor), and especially important these days: no real HiDPI support (practically impossible to support different scales for different monitors). It's not good enough.

These claims are blown out of proportion and/or simply untrue. Screen tearing: both Intel and AMD have hardware-backed "TearFree" buffering to prevent tearing. Bad performance: citation required - in my experience, Xorg is way faster. Touchscreen support - in most cases just works out of the box thanks to libinput. No HiDPI support for different scales per monitor - simply wrong - this is trivial with xrandr.

If you click and drag a window around in xorg, does the window stick perfectly to the cursor or is there still noticeable lag?

Re: Why don't we have Wayland on Raspberry Pi yet? (2018)

#183

Post by chmln »

curt15 wrote: post #182
chmln wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These claims are blown out of proportion and/or simply untrue. Screen tearing: both Intel and AMD have hardware-backed "TearFree" buffering to prevent tearing. Bad performance: citation required - in my experience, Xorg is way faster. Touchscreen support - in most cases just works out of the box thanks to libinput. No HiDPI support for different scales per monitor - simply wrong - this is trivial with xrandr.

If you click and drag a window around in xorg, does the window stick perfectly to the cursor or is there still noticeable lag?

I use a tiling wm (i3), so I can't exactly drag windows around, but I can drag-and-resize them. In my case, there is no lag. However, there is a tiny amount of stuttering since I don't use a compositor, but I can live with that.

Re: Why don't we have Wayland on Raspberry Pi yet? (2018)

#184

Post by chmln »

blibble wrote: post #139
chmln wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These claims are blown out of proportion and/or simply untrue. Screen tearing: both Intel and AMD have hardware-backed "TearFree" buffering to prevent tearing. Bad performance: citation required - in my experience, Xorg is way faster. Touchscreen support - in most cases just works out of the box thanks to libinput. No HiDPI support for different scales per monitor - simply wrong - this is trivial with xrandr.

I still find tearing to be problematic I have a machine with a supported Radeon card (open-source driver), another machine with a supported nvidia card (binary blob driver), and another two machines using different intel onboard graphics chips (open-source driver) the radeon and the intel (both drivers which work with it) have issues putting out a stable jitterless 60fps without tearing (with tearfree on, and various…

How did you test the fps?

I'm using the intel driver as well, and it's definitely not perfect. But it's pretty close, at least for me - I get hardware-accelerated video decoding with VAAPI, no tearing, and excellent input latency (~3ms).

Re: Why don't we have Wayland on Raspberry Pi yet? (2018)

#185

Post by donio »

m463 wrote: post #177
donio wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bring up remote Emacs frames (from existing sessions, using emacsclient) over ssh forwarded X11 all the time. I prefer this method over tty-only because of the better keyboard support (tty can't pass through all the modifiers or even all the ctrl combinations), image support and clipboard integration. (better colors used to be another reason but less so now that we have 24 bit color support in tty Emacs) With the f…

Have you tried tramp? I routinely use it to edit files on systems without emacs installed. Also you can edit files belonging to root, etc.

Yes, I use tramp as well for all those things. The remote Emacs session is more for everything else I do with Emacs, mail, chat, M-x shell sessions, dev sessions in progress with language servers running, maybe a debugger.

I use tty emacsclient plenty too (including from my phone) and I could certainly manage without remote X11 and perhaps even without EXWM (ouch) but not looking forward to the prospect of losing it, in exchange for... what? Smoother window transitions and scrolling? I don't want my windows to transition, I want jump scroll and things to pop in place instantly. I disable that shit even on Android.

So I guess I will stick with X11 as long as I can and reminisce about better days once it's gone.

(Emacs having its own remote display protocol would be a way to tackle the first part and maybe EXWM could be re-implemented for Wayland somehow too but neither of those things exist today)

Re: Why don't we have Wayland on Raspberry Pi yet? (2018)

#186

Post by overgard »

jolmg wrote: post #68
DonHopkins wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that X11 isn't doing something so right -- it's still terrible, and it always has been, and we knew it was terrible at the time it was standardized. But it's funny that you would bring up something as terrible as a shell scripting language like bash to compare to how terrible X-Windows is. Have you ever read through a gnu configure file yourself, or do you just close your eyes and type "./configure"? Who in th…

> as terrible as a shell scripting language That's a strong opinion. I'm not going to argue for lack of time, but suffice to say that 99% of my interactions with my computer and sometimes with my phone is with a shell scripting language. Shell scripting is awesome. > Have you ever read through a gnu configure file yourself, Yes. Generated scripts make for a boring read. > or do you just close your eyes and type "./co…

Oh god there's so many easy reasons why bash is terrible.

* Significant whitespace in surprising ways (a=1 vs a = 1 or spaces following square brackets)

* Word splitting

* No data structures of note, nor any way to create them in any sort of non-hacky way

* No data types, really, for that matter

* Can't really deal with binary data

* Awful error handling

* Weak math

* Weird scoping rules

Honestly as soon as I have to do anything that involves a conditional I abandon bash and use one of the many ubiquitous scripting languages that has great library support for doing all the system stuff you could do from the command line anyway.

Here's a great list of BASH pitfalls: https://mywiki.wooledge.org/BashPitfalls I can't think of any language other than maybe Perl or C++ that comes close to that

Re: Why don't we have Wayland on Raspberry Pi yet? (2018)

#187

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

dyhtf wrote: post #100
all2 wrote: post #10

I think it is important to point out that Wayland is a specification [0] and not some blob of software. [0] https://wayland.freedesktop.org/docs/html/apa.html

So is everything else in the world of software. You begin with a specification and then you start writing code.

Ha! In the OSS world that's almost never true. Ihe specification for FUSE is the libfuse source, for instance.

Re: Why don't we have Wayland on Raspberry Pi yet? (2018)

#188

Post by mrlambchop »

Woah - a huge flash to the past when I read this.

I ported Wayland to VideoCore4 (the multimedia engine in first Pi chip) back in 2011 - it was part of the Meltemi Nokia project that got cancelled the follow year - shame as it was pretty cool and had half a chance IMO. We worked with the team in Oslo on QT acceleration over GL ES and used EGL below Wayland (coupled with some magic APIs to get the VideoCore HVS to work well). Ported this to an ARM combo chip that had just the VideoCore GPU in it as well (no HVS) - it worked pretty well.

Prior to this however, I made a VideoCore demo that used a PCI bridge chip (from Broadcom) and you could plug it into a Dell laptop running Ubuntu and get accelerated video decode and also X11 window scaling working at 60fps. We nearly sold this into Apple for accelerating their macbook's but IIRC, getting the macbook into low power mode whilst the video was playing on the external chip was going to be soo much work that they gave up.

A even further back, I remember validating the HVS hardware block and writing the initial scaler driver for it (IIRC, scaler.c...) and made a dispman2 port for the driver. Circa 2006!

Great team - one of the most enjoyable set of people to work with I've ever come across.

Re: Why don't we have Wayland on Raspberry Pi yet? (2018)

#189

Post by nine_k »

m463 wrote: post #168
sam_lowry_ wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, X11 made it possible to have literally hundreds of window managers written to fit all possible tastes. With Wayland, the ecosystem of window managers will never be as rich, because a window manager has to implement too many things to be usable.

> Right, X11 made it possible to have literally hundreds of window managers written to fit all possible tastes. I've used it since its inception, however it has always kind of sucked. I think it goes to it's basic philosophy: it did not enforce policy. This let it survive a long time. It was whatever people wanted it to be. But because of this flexibility, it never became great. It's like the old Lilly Tomlin skit -…

What has become great? E.g. has NeXT / macOS graphics system become great? (Yes, I dislike macOS for its lack of customizability and being opinionated. It may be great for someone, but not for me.)

Re: Why don't we have Wayland on Raspberry Pi yet? (2018)

#190

Post by nine_k »

donio wrote: post #154
DonHopkins wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just use ssh/screen/emacs to work on remote servers. Why would I ever want an xterm?

I bring up remote Emacs frames (from existing sessions, using emacsclient) over ssh forwarded X11 all the time. I prefer this method over tty-only because of the better keyboard support (tty can't pass through all the modifiers or even all the ctrl combinations), image support and clipboard integration. (better colors used to be another reason but less so now that we have 24 bit color support in tty Emacs) With the f…

You can also expose the Emacs server socket and allow a local native GUI emacsclient to connect to it.
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