EU votes to create gigantic biometrics database • Hacker News Board

Re: EU votes to create gigantic biometrics database

#141

Post by tapland » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 2:26 PM UTC

ahje wrote: post #19

Daniel_sk wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting fact. I thought that having an ID card is pretty much mandatory in whole EU. In Slovakia you get one at age of 15 (I think) and it has biometric data - picture and fingerprints. You are not required by law to carry it with you, but it can cause delays if need to be verified by police or other authority. It’s also used to login into e-gov services with a card reader and your pin - but it’s quite limited at…

In the Nordic countries, ID isn't mandatory, and apart from a few border crossings between Denmark and Sweden, there are no border controls either. Apart from the aforementioned border controls, citizens of other Nordic countries aren't required to carry a passport or a national ID card, but should carry some kind of identification on them. In practice, that means you just carry your regular driver's license in your…

You are very much required to carry a national ID card (or passport) when travelling to other Nordic countries.

Now, there aren't any checks except for the border into Sweden from Denmark, but if there is a check you are not allowed to travel using an ID or driver's license. Driver's licences, ID cards issued by banks or tax offices are not valid for travel within schengen even though you are generally able to move between the countries anyway.

The misconception you present is the reason Swedes with driver's licences and normal ID cards got stranded in Denmark.

Re: EU votes to create gigantic biometrics database

#142

Post by ben_w » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 2:26 PM UTC

raxxorrax wrote: post #122

ben_w wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is plain stupid and negligent to give biometrical data to the German government. Really? Germany requires all citizens to have a biometric ID card. The ID cards were introduced separately in East and West Germany decades before reunification. What makes you think this is “stupid and negligent” when it’s been around for so long? I’d expect any social/political/legal bugs to have been solved by now.

> Germany requires all citizens to have a biometric ID card Partially true for your picture, that is restricted to the ID itself. And that is a relatively recent addition. You can still get an ID with "imperfect" biometric photo, which you provide yourself. Biometric photo is defined by some rudimentary rules (you are not allowed to use a picture of the back of your head) that isn't comparable to fingerprints in any…

> heh, have you written a test?

Fair. I suppose I expect important problems to be tested automatically by reality, but I don’t really know how Common Law systems handle that, and I’m completely unfamiliar with Civil Law systems.

Re: EU votes to create gigantic biometrics database

#143

Post by tapland » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 2:28 PM UTC

dijit wrote: post #13

tapland wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in Sweden very few people use national id-cards. Most people have ones issued by banks. A lot of people became painfully aware of this when they were refused re-entry into the country with their other ID-cards when border checks towards Denmark were implemented, since it's common to commute to Copenhagen. Most Swedes do have passports though.

> Most people have ones issued by banks Mine was issued by Skatterverket which is the tax agency, no? Surely that's "Government issued ID". In fact, I had to give them my fingerprint and iris scan when I got my card. (Although I have been denied entry when coming back from Copenhagen with it; "It is not a travel document" was the reasoning which is completely against the Schengen agreement.)

Cards from Skatteverket are not valid for travel abroad. They are not national IDs, though one would assume that to be the case.

> Om du inte har ett pass går det bra med ett nationellt ID-kort. På det nationella ID-kortet framgår vilken nationalitet man har. ID-kort som utfärdats av Skatteverket eller en bank är inte ett nationellt ID-kort eftersom det inte framgår vilken nationalitet man har - det framgår endast vilket land som kortet är utfärdat i och räknas därmed inte som giltig legitimation.

https://www.oresunddirekt.se/nyheter/graenskontroll-vid-inre...

Re: EU votes to create gigantic biometrics database

#144

Post by NotPaidToPost » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 2:33 PM UTC

rglullis wrote: post #103

thefounder wrote: post #92

I wonder how is this different than the US's system where even as a tourist I have to give them my biometrics so they can store it in their big database.

If you are foreign to the US and want to get in you need to accept their conditions that they deem needed for your entry. Even though is a questionable practice, you are doing something (provide biometrics) in order to get something else (access to a foreign country) The point here is that you are a CITIZEN of the EU, you need to subject to conditions that give you no benefit when traveling abroad.

You already need to submit biometric data in order to get a passport. That's how they get these data in the first place. In EU countries that have ID cards you also already need to submit biometric data when applying for one.

This only merges existing databases, which is a reasonable thing to do when you have a single border (Schengen area) and obviously want to quickly check anyone.

Re: EU votes to create gigantic biometrics database

#145

Post by Someone1234 » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 2:36 PM UTC

rglullis wrote: post #103

thefounder wrote: post #92

I wonder how is this different than the US's system where even as a tourist I have to give them my biometrics so they can store it in their big database.

If you are foreign to the US and want to get in you need to accept their conditions that they deem needed for your entry. Even though is a questionable practice, you are doing something (provide biometrics) in order to get something else (access to a foreign country) The point here is that you are a CITIZEN of the EU, you need to subject to conditions that give you no benefit when traveling abroad.

If you're a US Citizen you also need to submit in order to get re-admitted into your country of birth, or just to gain a US Passport (after 2007).

So I'm not defending the EU, but the US is already doing exactly this.

Re: EU votes to create gigantic biometrics database

#146

Post by gnulinux » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 2:37 PM UTC

rooam-dev wrote: post #95

ptidhomme wrote: post #20

Yet another step to make things more straightforwardly hackable for interested actors. Sorry for the cynicism, but I can't help thinking that all this digitalization and automation is just plain blessing for foreign intel agencies, if not the main goal.

On the other hand, this could mean a joint effort to make it more secure, since stakes would be higher.

I don't think it's possible to make a 100% secure complex system. You have a lot of moving parts, from OSS vulnerabilities to proprietary S vulnerabilities to hardware issues to social engineering to DevOps mistakes to intellectual laziness etc. With 0.01% chance millions of Europeans data will be stolen.

Re: EU votes to create gigantic biometrics database

#147

Post by CzechTech » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 2:37 PM UTC

johnnycab wrote: post #94

In the section for 'Schengen Border Checks', under the image of the Russian passport, there is a picture of a scowling Gérard Depardieu[1], which is a thinly veiled attempt at a display of mirth and disdain in equal parts, by the Directorate General of EU Commission - Migration and Home Affairs. Although, his body of work and extracurricular activities could provide a further source of fodder for ridicule. However, i…

The germans always find a way to control Europe.

Re: EU votes to create gigantic biometrics database

#148

Post by orbifold » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 2:41 PM UTC

oAlbe wrote: post #106

pmlnr wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you read "Brave New World"? Genetically engineered people, sorted into categories of capabilities, with all their needs for happiness provided, including recreational drugs.

> sorted into categories of capabilities Artificially and massively genetically engineered and bred into categories, not sorted. It's an important distinction.

The breeding and sorting is largely redundant given that Humans follow a capability bell curve naturally. Singapore, China try their best to tease apart that curve as accurately as possible. So does Israel (everyone takes an Intelligence test at 18 and this factors into which University classes you can attend, the Army unit you get assigned to and if you receive unsolicited Job offers by Intelligence Agencies (Mossad, Shabak))

Re: EU votes to create gigantic biometrics database

#149

Post by drinkcrudeoil » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 2:45 PM UTC

In CIR "S" stands for Security

Re: EU votes to create gigantic biometrics database

#150

Post by raxxorrax » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 2:46 PM UTC

christudor wrote: post #132

johnnycab wrote: post #94

In the section for 'Schengen Border Checks', under the image of the Russian passport, there is a picture of a scowling Gérard Depardieu[1], which is a thinly veiled attempt at a display of mirth and disdain in equal parts, by the Directorate General of EU Commission - Migration and Home Affairs. Although, his body of work and extracurricular activities could provide a further source of fodder for ridicule. However, i…

"We don't care if you object and irrespective of your views, this project is going ahead." The EU seems to have done this for at least twenty-five years, the prime example being their stubborn insistence on monetary union despite the mountains of expert opinion saying that monetary union made no sense economically.

And those experts were pretty much on point. I doubt the EU will survive long with its attitude. I wouldn't mind, since something new is preferable to this.