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New study shows grim outlook for future of Air Force pilot shortage

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Re: New study shows grim outlook for future of Air Force pilot shortage

#121

Post by jessaustin »

rxhernandez wrote: post #48
driverdan wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hadn't thought about the cost of flight time. That makes sense. To put what you said in another way, every hour an F-22 flys costs the same as hiring someone at a middle class wage for a year.

My guess is that a substantial part of those costs are probably to pay a few people a middle class wage.

"A few", as in 2500? That's roughly the number of working days in a year multiplied by the number of working hours in a military day. What are all those people doing, and is there a distinct set of people doing those things for every aircraft? There must be some other explanation...

Re: New study shows grim outlook for future of Air Force pilot shortage

#122

Post by souprock »

jwally wrote: post #30
driverdan wrote: post #18

> A recent RAND study found the cost of training a basic qualified fighter pilot ranges from $5.6 million for an F-16 pilot to $10.9 million for an F-22 pilot. Those numbers seem outrageous to me. Why does it cost so much? Are there frequent plane crashes?

Per Wikipedia a B2 bomber has an hourly operational cost of $135,000. No idea how many hours you have to train on the thing in real life to become proficient; but at that rate...yeesh!

There was a flight for 44.3 hours, then without even stopping the engines another one of 30 hours. That makes for a $10,030,500 flight not even counting the bombs.

https://www.uso.org/stories/253-inside-the-longest-bombing-r...

Re: New study shows grim outlook for future of Air Force pilot shortage

#123

Post by bendbro »

asark wrote: post #21
jwally wrote: post #14

An Anecdotal "I quit" I read a couple of years ago about the (then impending) pilot shortage: https://www.jqpublicblog.com/punching-out-latest-dear-boss-l... Dear Boss, I’ve fucking had it. I’m finally giving up on my Air Force and I’m throwing in the towel. Flying fighter jets is no longer cool enough to outweigh the bullshit, and so I’ve broken the mach for the final time. You’re going to believe that I’m leaving b…

Something like this seems to be infecting our entire society. See: Graeber's Bullshit Jobs —he blames, more or less, the takeover of Finance and with it a new form of managerialism, generally. See also: common everyday experience and observation. See also: the mysterious non-Baumol's cost disease not-so-slowly eating "the West"'s, and especially the US', ability to get anything done.

I have been feeling the same. This prevalence of bullshit in an industry I joined (computer science) to avoid such bullshit has been the most shocking experience of my life.

Another related topic to add to your list: Boeing culture https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19671611

Re: New study shows grim outlook for future of Air Force pilot shortage

#124

Post by umvi »

WalterBright wrote: post #88
umvi wrote: post #6

Seems like the Air Force is trapped in a vicious underhiring/overhiring cycle. When I was in college I did Air Force ROTC. A lot of my peers had pilot slots; I was poised as a 17D (Cyber Ops). After graduating, my training date was put on hold virtually indefinitely. Eventually I got an email that the Air Force had commissioned way too many officers and were looking for people to voluntarily leave with no commitment/…

Hay fever causes problems with wearing the oxygen mask. Edit: Downvote me if you like, but that's the reason I was given when I asked an Air Force pilot.

Aren't you breathing super pure oxygen/nitrogen mixture in a fighter jet?

Re: New study shows grim outlook for future of Air Force pilot shortage

#125

Post by souprock »

Moru wrote: post #38
mmsimanga wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am guessing when you say "I do" you must have a pretty good idea of the person you are marrying.

Weren't we talking about people in their twenties? Do you people often get married at that age? I thought it was more common to delay marriage and kids to later in the career nowadays?

That delay is common where many Hacker News people reside, in places ranging from San Francisco to northern Sweden. It is however unnatural, and people in more affordable locations are still starting families closer to the natural time. My wife and I had 5 or 6 kids in my twenties, and then about that many in our thirties, and then still more. This sort of family becomes impossible if you delay, and you might not realize you want it until well after you can't have it.

Re: New study shows grim outlook for future of Air Force pilot shortage

#126

Post by [deleted] »

aristophenes wrote: post #112
richardhod wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting how the US military copied the British class-based system of management, officers v other ranks. It does stymie a lot of creativity and talent.

The way I see this is that the US Air Force does allow enlisted to fly. First, get a college degree, and go through the application process to become an officer. Prior enlisted with the smarts to do it are seen as better officers. Then once you've done that you can get a pilot slot. Why would I want someone who is not willing or able to get a college degree pilot my $150 million dollar jet?

[deleted]

Re: New study shows grim outlook for future of Air Force pilot shortage

#127

Post by souprock »

umvi wrote: post #124
WalterBright wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hay fever causes problems with wearing the oxygen mask. Edit: Downvote me if you like, but that's the reason I was given when I asked an Air Force pilot.

Aren't you breathing super pure oxygen/nitrogen mixture in a fighter jet?

I believe the F-22 uses air that is oxygen-enriched by a mechanical device that does some sort of filtering/diffusion process.

Picture this:

It's time to go fly. The alarm is going off, and you need to get in your jet. Boogers are streaming down your face, and you are experiencing sneezing fits that have you bent over with your eyes closing and tearing up. You can put on a mask with nice clean air, but it'll take an hour before you are in condition to fly. Sitting there on the runway waiting for your allergies to stop acting up is not acceptable.

Re: New study shows grim outlook for future of Air Force pilot shortage

#128

Post by souprock »

aristophenes wrote: post #112
richardhod wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting how the US military copied the British class-based system of management, officers v other ranks. It does stymie a lot of creativity and talent.

The way I see this is that the US Air Force does allow enlisted to fly. First, get a college degree, and go through the application process to become an officer. Prior enlisted with the smarts to do it are seen as better officers. Then once you've done that you can get a pilot slot. Why would I want someone who is not willing or able to get a college degree pilot my $150 million dollar jet?

You'd want that because a college degree is a 4-year delay during which the human body ages. Everything gets worse with age: hearing, eyesight, neck strength (needed for high-G pilots), etc.

That cuts the career by 4 years, meaning that a larger portion of it is training and a smaller portion is being useful. There is then an incentive to let excessively older people keep flying, meaning a reduction in the physical standards (eyesight, etc.) for the people who fly that $150 million dollar jet. Good eyesight matters more than college gunk like "Art Appreciation" and "Intro to Humanities".

Re: New study shows grim outlook for future of Air Force pilot shortage

#129

Post by darkpuma »

aristophenes wrote: post #112
richardhod wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting how the US military copied the British class-based system of management, officers v other ranks. It does stymie a lot of creativity and talent.

The way I see this is that the US Air Force does allow enlisted to fly. First, get a college degree, and go through the application process to become an officer. Prior enlisted with the smarts to do it are seen as better officers. Then once you've done that you can get a pilot slot. Why would I want someone who is not willing or able to get a college degree pilot my $150 million dollar jet?

Many of the best pilots in history had no university degrees. Chuck Yeager famously had none. Jacqueline Cochran had none. Amelia Earhart dropped out of Columbia. Charles Lindbergh dropped out of UW-Madison. Howard Hughes dropped out of Rice. Hanna Reitsch dropped out of medical school at Kiel.

If the idea is simply use willingness to pay for / put up with university as a proxy to test seriousness and dedication, why not ask prospective aviators to get full-face tattoos? Surely that stunt would prove more dedication than a college degree, and waste less of everybody's time.

Re: New study shows grim outlook for future of Air Force pilot shortage

#130

Post by WalterBright »

souprock wrote: post #127
umvi wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't you breathing super pure oxygen/nitrogen mixture in a fighter jet?

I believe the F-22 uses air that is oxygen-enriched by a mechanical device that does some sort of filtering/diffusion process. Picture this: It's time to go fly. The alarm is going off, and you need to get in your jet. Boogers are streaming down your face, and you are experiencing sneezing fits that have you bent over with your eyes closing and tearing up. You can put on a mask with nice clean air, but it'll take an…

I wouldn't want to be dealing with itchy eyes and sneezing when I need my full attention managing the airplane in combat. The hay fever drugs make one dizzy (and it says on the label to not take them when operating machinery). (I have hay fever. One nice thing about getting older is my hay fever symptoms have steadily declined. They were rather bad when I was fighter pilot age.)

You'll also need a HEPA filter to filter out pollen, just a dust filter won't do it.

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