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The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

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Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#181

Post by nailer »

guylhem wrote: post #175
nailer wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's rude. Following up with threats of violence now crosses my line of "non acceptable behaviour". Yes. But perhaps 'catching' him crossed his.

So what's your plan? Should someone like this do as he please, regardless of the consequences for the others? That's exactly the attitude the article attacks! To follow up on the original subject, let me rephrase what I understood from your one liner: "maybe the female attendees, by daring to show up in non-unattractive clothes, provocked the gropings". Sounds acceptable to you? Not to me.

> To follow up on the original subject, let me rephrase what I understood from your one liner: "maybe the female attendees, by daring to show up in non-unattractive clothes, provocked the gropings". Sounds acceptable to you? Not to me.

Huh? I'm saying physically attacking someone (if that's what they perceive) may result in the same.

I think that's fairly obvious, so I've reported your comment.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#182

Post by trevi »

forgotusername wrote: post #26
trevi wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the way who really uses fora as the plural of forum? To me it seems at best arbitrary, at worst pretentious.

I'm sorry, next time I'll uses "forumses". Damn ecomony got all these morans backs up!

You're implying that fora is the only acceptable way of writing the plural of "forum". That's nonsense, forums is perfectly valid English. My point was: why forum/fora? Why not creditor/creditores, or abdomen/abdomina?

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#183

Post by pbhjpbhj »

capstone wrote: post #154
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>FWIW some people would consider that unwelcoming/harassing--I think the term is "othering". i.e. what's treated as important is not the person or their skill but their gender. >And, yes, it can be annoying for guy in a "traditionally female" domain as well. I think I'd prefer to have people pay attention to me for a particular characteristic if that meant that you could then demonstrate you're more than just that ch…

Sorry to hear your experience as a father is less than positive, socially-speaking. As a mother of an 18-month old whose father is currently taking care of him full time, our experience is quite the opposite. My husband gets more compliments in a day than I do in a month, I think largely because of the "otherness". He is is also a very popular member of the local "mommy" group. Perhaps it has something to do with whe…

>Perhaps it has something to do with where you are?

Maybe I'm not as handsome as your fella.

Thanks for the info.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#184

Post by kragen »

jules wrote: post #170
kragen wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, Mackenzie, are you saying that you know Noirin personally, and that it's public knowledge that she's in the process of getting a divorce, and [edited] also that she really is looking for a new partner?

She posted it on her blog.

I am happy to see that Mackenzie's comment has been voted up from -1 to 3 now.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#185

Post by sliverstorm »

TheAmazingIdiot wrote: post #174
ZoFreX wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a false dichotomy. Women are, generally, weaker than their male peers. That's not sexist, or discriminatory, it's how things are and (on a biological basis) probably how they will be for some time. To fail to acknowledge that, or pretend that the sexes are equals on all levels, is not only ignorant but in my opinion harmful to the progress of "equality". It is perfectly possible to regard someone as p…

And there are larger men (example: me at 6'5", 275) who can literally wipe the floor with most other _men_. Of course, I have to protect them, because they are weaker and smaller. Can anybody say bullshit? I'm up for equality, and I mean real equality. We will be equal when a woman hits a man in the face, and the man responds in kind by punching her, and nobody says anything about "hitting a woman". Lastly, I have a…

I'm up for equality, and I mean real equality. We will be equal when a woman hits a man in the face, and the man responds in kind by punching her, and nobody says anything about "hitting a woman".

There's a reason that social moor exists. Until women catch up in physical power, or men regress, most men will have the power to seriously injure a woman and walk away unharmed, unless the woman is trained or armed. As such, it is a man's duty to take responsibility for this difference, and that is where the taboo on striking a woman came about. There's a partner taboo as well- regarding children- that exists for exactly the same reasons.

Would you argue that someone more powerful does not have a responsibility to manage their strength, and using brute force on women and children should not be considered reprehensible?

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#186

Post by angumagu »

nickolai wrote: post #155
ibejoeb wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Harassment is not simply unwanted attention: agreed. However, this is not sexual harassment: "A presenter had a title slide followed by a slide of bikini-clad women holding laptops, which he said was just to get people to pay attention."

Totally agreed : had the presenter replaced the "bikini-clad girl" by a tough looking dark-haired muscular-type guy in boxer short holding an iphone, i wonder how many men would've found this offensive? Rethorical question : None. They would've found it funny. Had the conference room been full of women, would the guys still have found it funny? Answer : Yes. And what if the women started to comment on the guy's 'feat…

Your mirror-world example leaves one important factor out: context. That is, the larger social context is a world of unequal gendered power dynamics. I think your thought experiment is accurate in its depiction of what that flipped situation would look like, but you are implying the difference is in sensitivity or disposition.

I think the difference is actually that men can laugh at that stuff because a) it's ironic in that those images are typically the other way around and b) that sort of objectification of the male body isn't reminding them that they're at greater risk for sexual harassment and assault. Because they aren't.

The problem is that those images and that humor, in public, about women, happens in the context of a world where women are more easily abused, assaulted and harassed, and men more easily get away with it. So context matters, and in this social context, that "humor" shouldn't be acceptable.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#187

Post by [deleted] »

kbatten wrote: post #167
TomOfTTB wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you make a point that’s over looked here. As much as it’s PC to portray men and women as completely equal I think men who witness this behavior have a greater responsibility to step in. Our society has always defined “being a man” as taking on certain responsibilities and I think this is one of them. Further I think every father should teach his sons that they have a responsibility to be protective of women.…

I definitely disagree with this. I cannot see how women can be both things to be protected, and be taken as seriously as their male peers.

[deleted]

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#188

Post by [deleted] »

idm wrote: post #108
acangiano wrote: post #94

A few thoughts: * This is one of the most factual, well written articles that I've encountered on the subject. * It's just sad to see socially awkward people manifest their sexual frustration in this manner. And it's even sadder to see that the few women we have in our profession feel threatened at conferences. The overwhelming majority of good people need to intervene to interrupt any form of harassment towards anyo…

"It may not be PC to say this, but it's important to distinguish unpleasant, but fundamentally innocuos flirting from awkward people, from bona fide sexual harassment like groping or inappropriate touching." Sexual harassment includes the comments like the "how much for a sexual favor?" example. That constitutes bona fide harassment. Here's my example from the last 2 years. I'm blanking on the conference now, but the…

[deleted]

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#189

Post by sliverstorm »

wtracy wrote: post #141
ibejoeb wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Harassment is not simply unwanted attention: agreed. However, this is not sexual harassment: "A presenter had a title slide followed by a slide of bikini-clad women holding laptops, which he said was just to get people to pay attention."

That doesn't make it acceptable.

Naturally, but we do need to keep the distinction.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#190

Post by sliverstorm »

bioh42_2 wrote: post #138
robg wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A small minority of men cause the vast majority of the problem. Unfortunately it doesn't take many to create a real problem. This seems like the most important point. Moreover, it's critical that all men who see and hear of such things work to stomp them out. If individuals don't have the social skills on how to woo, it's a topic for personal discussion. Dating isn't hard if basic respect is the first item to be debu…

A small minority of men cause the vast majority of the problem. Unfortunately it doesn't take many to create a real problem. I recall a study which found that among the IT community only 3% of males make unvanted advances to women. But because the share of men to women is so lop sided, the women experience a near constant stream of unwanted advances. I think there might have been an HN discussion abou this... And a f…

I recall a study which found that among the IT community only 3% of males make unvanted advances to women

You're missing some important numbers. How many made wanted advances?

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