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The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

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Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#151

Post by krakensden »

acangiano wrote: post #94

A few thoughts: * This is one of the most factual, well written articles that I've encountered on the subject. * It's just sad to see socially awkward people manifest their sexual frustration in this manner. And it's even sadder to see that the few women we have in our profession feel threatened at conferences. The overwhelming majority of good people need to intervene to interrupt any form of harassment towards anyo…

> * This is one of the most factual, well written articles that I've encountered on the subject.

As an aside, LWN is great and has lots of well written articles, technical and otherwise.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#152

Post by guylhem »

sedachv wrote: post #149
guylhem wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Some details I forgot to say: the cocktail was in big garden. it was summer time. people where waiting around a table to have their glasses refilled) Please enlighten me. I have 2 scenarios - either he stole or he was playing tag. If he played tag, threatening is wrong. If he stole, what exactly should I have apologised for ? - letting him steal from an open bar ? - letting him run away with what he stole ? - daring…

How did you "catch" him? If you grabbed onto him a certain way it could have been a trigger for PTSD behavior from a similar thing someone did to him in a fight or something. I encountered a person with very similar behavior at a party once. There was a bunch of horsing around in a mosh pit sort of thing and this other guy grabbed onto him from behind. He flips the other guy over his back and slams him onto the floor…

Honestly I can't remember about how. I think I might have tapped twice on his shoulder but I'm not sure. Anyway it was during the following conversation that it happened - when I asked to share the wine and that I remember quite well.

The situation you describe looks like an honest mistake to me - being grabbed from behind is weird. I wouldn't blame him for reacting and hurting the grabber while he was simply slamming him onto the flow. Bad things happen.

But later on, the guy is still threatening you? To me, the honnest mistake apology is gone. PSTD my *ss - he's abusive. I wasn't there and can't say for sure but to me that's totally different.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#153

Post by logic »

seanc wrote: post #12

I couldn't get over how powerful the message was when presented in clear technical language. By articulating the problem in a simple factual manner and offering specific concrete solutions, some of which are already under way, she makes it impossible to dismiss her concerns. The medium is the message I suppose. I wonder if this style, applied to this issue, is powerful only for technical people, or it it would be equ…

Agreed completely. The articles relating to Noirin Shirley's recent post were clearly polarized: participants "picked a side" that agreed with the biases they brought to the table, and not much in the way of useful discussion actually seemed to happen.

On the other hand, this article is much more useful: a compelling description of the problem and examination of what isn't working, followed by a clear call-to-action on what they suggest be done (in this case, adopting a minimal anti-harassment policy).

More like this, please.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#154

Post by capstone »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #103
follower wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only "sexism" I observed was excessive delight: "Oh wow, a woman!" which I hardly consider harassing. FWIW some people would consider that unwelcoming/harassing--I think the term is "othering". i.e. what's treated as important is not the person or their skill but their gender. And, yes, it can be annoying for guy in a "traditionally female" domain as well.

>FWIW some people would consider that unwelcoming/harassing--I think the term is "othering". i.e. what's treated as important is not the person or their skill but their gender. >And, yes, it can be annoying for guy in a "traditionally female" domain as well. I think I'd prefer to have people pay attention to me for a particular characteristic if that meant that you could then demonstrate you're more than just that ch…

Sorry to hear your experience as a father is less than positive, socially-speaking. As a mother of an 18-month old whose father is currently taking care of him full time, our experience is quite the opposite. My husband gets more compliments in a day than I do in a month, I think largely because of the "otherness". He is is also a very popular member of the local "mommy" group. Perhaps it has something to do with where you are? As an ex-New Yorker, I've found the city to be unfriendly to parents of either gender.

OT, are you aware of the HN parents google group?

http://groups.google.com/group/hn-parents

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#155

Post by nickolai »

ibejoeb wrote: post #139
acangiano wrote: post #94

A few thoughts: * This is one of the most factual, well written articles that I've encountered on the subject. * It's just sad to see socially awkward people manifest their sexual frustration in this manner. And it's even sadder to see that the few women we have in our profession feel threatened at conferences. The overwhelming majority of good people need to intervene to interrupt any form of harassment towards anyo…

Harassment is not simply unwanted attention: agreed. However, this is not sexual harassment: "A presenter had a title slide followed by a slide of bikini-clad women holding laptops, which he said was just to get people to pay attention."

Totally agreed : had the presenter replaced the "bikini-clad girl" by a tough looking dark-haired muscular-type guy in boxer short holding an iphone, i wonder how many men would've found this offensive? Rethorical question : None. They would've found it funny. Had the conference room been full of women, would the guys still have found it funny? Answer : Yes. And what if the women started to comment on the guy's 'features'. Hilarous.

I whole-heartedly agree that repeated verbal and physical assault are totally unacceptable, and anyone around must take urgent action against it. But as said above please dont see harassment in everything, just because men find something funny, or because they show a girl on a slide, it is almost never meant to be offensive to anyone. It just isnt, and the poor guy hasnt even thought it could offent anyone. it is just a means of trying to avoid Death by Powerpoint.

And just in case anyone wonders. I do not mean to offend anyone :)

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#156

Post by kragen »

maco wrote: post #112
jedbrown wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She's married, I don't think her flirting was intended as a sign of availability.

Only married in the "divorce proceedings take a while" sense.

To be clear, Mackenzie, are you saying that you know Noirin personally, and that it's public knowledge that she's in the process of getting a divorce, and [edited] also that she really is looking for a new partner?

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#157

Post by Kliment »

follower wrote: post #46
theophani wrote: post #18

I've [only] been to three tech conferences. The only "sexism" I observed was excessive delight: "Oh wow, a woman!" which I hardly consider harassing. No one meant disrespect; rather the opposite. Possibly offensive is the notion that it would be a surprise to find me there at all. I might say something similar to a man at a needlepoint conference. Yes, I got sexual attention, but only in a social context, and nothing…

> The only "sexism" I observed was excessive delight: "Oh wow, a woman!" which I hardly consider harassing. FWIW some people would consider that unwelcoming/harassing--I think the term is "othering". i.e. what's treated as important is not the person or their skill but their gender. And, yes, it can be annoying for guy in a "traditionally female" domain as well.

As a male knitter, I can confirm that I get weird reactions - though usually from nonknitters who see me knitting.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#158

Post by sedachv »

guylhem wrote: post #152
sedachv wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did you "catch" him? If you grabbed onto him a certain way it could have been a trigger for PTSD behavior from a similar thing someone did to him in a fight or something. I encountered a person with very similar behavior at a party once. There was a bunch of horsing around in a mosh pit sort of thing and this other guy grabbed onto him from behind. He flips the other guy over his back and slams him onto the floor…

Honestly I can't remember about how. I think I might have tapped twice on his shoulder but I'm not sure. Anyway it was during the following conversation that it happened - when I asked to share the wine and that I remember quite well. The situation you describe looks like an honest mistake to me - being grabbed from behind is weird. I wouldn't blame him for reacting and hurting the grabber while he was simply slammin…

Oh no, he was doing it totally indirectly - like, sizing me up while being defensive. I guess that's not being threatening, but only after the interaction I realized that he was really preparing a plan for how to kick my ass in case I did anything wrong, until I calmed him down. It was also pretty appropriate for the setting.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#159

Post by aliguori »

acangiano wrote: post #94

A few thoughts: * This is one of the most factual, well written articles that I've encountered on the subject. * It's just sad to see socially awkward people manifest their sexual frustration in this manner. And it's even sadder to see that the few women we have in our profession feel threatened at conferences. The overwhelming majority of good people need to intervene to interrupt any form of harassment towards anyo…

> * Sexism and unprofessionalism can be avoided without being prudish about the content of your presentation. This is a slide I used in one of my Italian presentations.

Actually, even something like this is still considered offensive. See http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Sexualized_environment

A sexualized presentation will most likely disproportionately offend women over men particularly in a male dominated audience.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#160

Post by jacquesm »

idm wrote: post #108
acangiano wrote: post #94

A few thoughts: * This is one of the most factual, well written articles that I've encountered on the subject. * It's just sad to see socially awkward people manifest their sexual frustration in this manner. And it's even sadder to see that the few women we have in our profession feel threatened at conferences. The overwhelming majority of good people need to intervene to interrupt any form of harassment towards anyo…

"It may not be PC to say this, but it's important to distinguish unpleasant, but fundamentally innocuos flirting from awkward people, from bona fide sexual harassment like groping or inappropriate touching." Sexual harassment includes the comments like the "how much for a sexual favor?" example. That constitutes bona fide harassment. Here's my example from the last 2 years. I'm blanking on the conference now, but the…

The same even happened in the chat during the start-up school webcasts. Very disturbing.
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