The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed] • Hacker News Board

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#141

Post by wtracy » Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 7:28 PM UTC

ibejoeb wrote: post #139

acangiano wrote: post #94

A few thoughts: * This is one of the most factual, well written articles that I've encountered on the subject. * It's just sad to see socially awkward people manifest their sexual frustration in this manner. And it's even sadder to see that the few women we have in our profession feel threatened at conferences. The overwhelming majority of good people need to intervene to interrupt any form of harassment towards anyo…

Harassment is not simply unwanted attention: agreed. However, this is not sexual harassment: "A presenter had a title slide followed by a slide of bikini-clad women holding laptops, which he said was just to get people to pay attention."

That doesn't make it acceptable.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#142

Post by binspace » Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 7:33 PM UTC

My personal experience is that tech conferences tend to encourage cliquish and hierarchal (based on popularity and tech-sphere influence) behavior which feels dehumanizing.

I think there is a common thread with my observation to sexual harassment at conferences. When people relate to each other on a human (rather than hierarchal level), people tend to respect each other more.

edit

Women also bring greater social cohesion to groups.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/09/100930143339.ht...

The fact that women are sexually harassed could be solved by having more women at conferences.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#143

Post by ebiester » Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 7:47 PM UTC

ibejoeb wrote: post #139

acangiano wrote: post #94

A few thoughts: * This is one of the most factual, well written articles that I've encountered on the subject. * It's just sad to see socially awkward people manifest their sexual frustration in this manner. And it's even sadder to see that the few women we have in our profession feel threatened at conferences. The overwhelming majority of good people need to intervene to interrupt any form of harassment towards anyo…

Harassment is not simply unwanted attention: agreed. However, this is not sexual harassment: "A presenter had a title slide followed by a slide of bikini-clad women holding laptops, which he said was just to get people to pay attention."

It is creating an inhospitable environment. I know, it seems odd that people would be so sensitive to something that seems so minor, but think of it in terms of a group of bullies. There are very few actions that a bully takes that are out and out awful. Instead, it's the little things that accumulate. Those little things that, designed or not, let you know what others think your place is.

It's rarely attractive men in speedos holding the laptops. The lunch isn't being held at a strip club where men are dancing. It's all these small things that add up to an intolerable environment. It's like little pricks of a needle. It's not that any individual one is "that bad", but it's the bigger picture when society looks at you as a voodoo doll.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#144

Post by stevenbedrick » Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 7:49 PM UTC

ibejoeb wrote: post #139

acangiano wrote: post #94

A few thoughts: * This is one of the most factual, well written articles that I've encountered on the subject. * It's just sad to see socially awkward people manifest their sexual frustration in this manner. And it's even sadder to see that the few women we have in our profession feel threatened at conferences. The overwhelming majority of good people need to intervene to interrupt any form of harassment towards anyo…

Harassment is not simply unwanted attention: agreed. However, this is not sexual harassment: "A presenter had a title slide followed by a slide of bikini-clad women holding laptops, which he said was just to get people to pay attention."

I disagree. That sort of slide (and its associated comment) is absolutely sexual harassment, in that it automatically sexualizes what is supposed to be a professional environment. Given the technology world's long and unpleasant track record of sexist behavior towards women (as well as towards... well, pretty much anybody who isn't, cisgendered, heterosexual, and male), I personally can think of very few ways that sexualizing a public technology presentation can do anything other than create (or contribute to) a hostile environment for a good chunk of the audience.

Furthermore, that sort of slide sends a clear message to the audience about who the speaker thinks they're speaking to. In this case, it says that the speaker thinks that his audience is composed of heterosexual males[1], which I'm sure feels just great to any women who might also be in the audience.

[1]: I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that the author of those conference slides did not include them in an attempt to appeal to the audience's lesbian members. I am, of course, willing to be corrected on this point.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#145

Post by guylhem » Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 7:53 PM UTC

rue wrote: post #110

guylhem wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

here a copy of an email I sent after reading that article. It's not only guys hitting girl, it can take may other forms. The problem is, being mostly outcasts, we lean to tolerate untolerable behaviour. -- Following an HN link, I read your article today on LWN http://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/417952/bf6a55b67170ff0e/ and it rang a bell. There's an event I remember from a conference in LSM around 2002 IIRC in Bordeaux, F…

You realise that your actions, as described, can be construed as rather creepy and that maybe you should have apologised?

(Some details I forgot to say: the cocktail was in big garden. it was summer time. people where waiting around a table to have their glasses refilled)

Please enlighten me.

I have 2 scenarios - either he stole or he was playing tag. If he played tag, threatening is wrong.

If he stole, what exactly should I have apologised for ? - letting him steal from an open bar ? - letting him run away with what he stole ? - daring to catch up with him ? - smiling to him ? - asking him to fill the empty glasses of the people around him with the full bottle he stole ?

For god sake, he was no hobo but a kernel hacker invited to a conference!

I believed it was a dare - like playing tag. Maybe he did believe otherwise - but why exactly would you take a full bottle from an open bar and run around laughting?? But when confronted I repeat in a non threatening way, why try to escalate instead of going back to normal mode and sharing with the folks having empty glasses around?

I mean it's an open bar. You are not paying per drink, but that's not a reason to grab a bottle and run away or like come with a big back and fill it up as in a supermarket.

That's rude. Following up with threats of violence now crosses my line of "non acceptable behaviour".

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#146

Post by idm » Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 7:53 PM UTC

callahad wrote: post #118

idm wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It may not be PC to say this, but it's important to distinguish unpleasant, but fundamentally innocuos flirting from awkward people, from bona fide sexual harassment like groping or inappropriate touching." Sexual harassment includes the comments like the "how much for a sexual favor?" example. That constitutes bona fide harassment. Here's my example from the last 2 years. I'm blanking on the conference now, but the…

Are you perhaps thinking of Ian Bicking's "Topics of Interest" talk [0] from PyCon 2009? It definitely veered into the uncomfortable, but there was some reasonable handling of the situation during the talk, IIRC, and was definitely a catalyst in the PSF adopting a formal diversity statement [1] and trying to be encourage inclusivity in the community. [0]: http://us.pycon.org/2009/conference/schedule/event/76/ [1]: ht…

Yeah, that's the talk I was thinking about.

UPDATE - after watching it again, they handled it pretty well.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#147

Post by guylhem » Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 8:12 PM UTC

pingswept wrote: post #93

guylhem wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

here a copy of an email I sent after reading that article. It's not only guys hitting girl, it can take may other forms. The problem is, being mostly outcasts, we lean to tolerate untolerable behaviour. -- Following an HN link, I read your article today on LWN http://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/417952/bf6a55b67170ff0e/ and it rang a bell. There's an event I remember from a conference in LSM around 2002 IIRC in Bordeaux, F…

I think this is the crux of what happened, but I don't really understand what it means: "he suddently turned weird. There was 2 or 3 people around, and he started telling about us about growing in Illinois, having had bullet wounds, knowing how to defend himself, and finally threatening violence." To me, this sounds like someone with PTSD, (sort of a Walter Sobchak character, if you're familiar with The Big Lebowski)…

I still don't exactly understand why he did that. Maybe PTSD as you suggested. And I still can't believe someone would steal from an open bar. He was laughing all the while. It really looked like playing tag to me so I played along. Then he became weird.

Anyway I posted that anecdote to push the message that sometimes we build rationalizations about other people behavior. The article is enlightening - as someone else said, others articles reeked of feminism. This one looks quite serious to me. It made that anecdote flash in my mind.

Now I do not care about the reasons why people do something or something else. In a tech conference, you do not threaten other people. That's wrong. Our mistake is to let such persons get away with that.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#148

Post by wtracy » Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 8:22 PM UTC

calebgilbert wrote: post #137

mambodog wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, so, because they're lesbians (so you say) it's not possible for them to be sexually harassed by men? I don't follow your train of thought.

It's about any women (lesbians and non-lesbians alike) not actually being harassed, but rather just running around trying to enforce their own agenda on the world. My bottom line is this - if I say something to someone and did not mean any offense/harassment, did not consider it to be offensive/harassing - and someone else still wants to cry about it, then f-*ck them. I guess in the particular case of the particular…

I've dealt with my share of reverse-chauvinism-disguised-as-feminism, so I know where you're coming from, but consider what you just said:

"if I say something to someone and did not mean any offense/harassment, did not consider it to be offensive/harassing - and someone else still wants to cry about it, then f-*ck them"

You are the only one who gets to decide whether your actions are considered offensive? Really?

I bet that the conference organizer who hired strippers didn't consider it offensive, nor the presenters who show slides of bikini babes "to get everyone's attention". That doesn't make those actions not offensive.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#149

Post by sedachv » Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 8:28 PM UTC

guylhem wrote: post #145

rue wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You realise that your actions, as described, can be construed as rather creepy and that maybe you should have apologised?

(Some details I forgot to say: the cocktail was in big garden. it was summer time. people where waiting around a table to have their glasses refilled) Please enlighten me. I have 2 scenarios - either he stole or he was playing tag. If he played tag, threatening is wrong. If he stole, what exactly should I have apologised for ? - letting him steal from an open bar ? - letting him run away with what he stole ? - daring…

How did you "catch" him? If you grabbed onto him a certain way it could have been a trigger for PTSD behavior from a similar thing someone did to him in a fight or something.

I encountered a person with very similar behavior at a party once. There was a bunch of horsing around in a mosh pit sort of thing and this other guy grabbed onto him from behind. He flips the other guy over his back and slams him onto the floor so hard the other guy's ankle literally breaks in two.

Be careful with doing things that may potentially be seen as aggressive to other people, your story could have turned out worse.

For the record, the guy with the broken ankle wasn't angry about it, and there's now a pretty cool photo of the broken ankle on the Internet (I mean it literally got broken in two - his foot was fully separated with the bones sticking out). I talked to the PTSD guy about it later. He was defensive and wanted to kick my ass at first, then he also told me about the rough things that happened to him, and then we shared some drinks. He was on ok guy otherwise.

In your case I'm not sure trying to get the guy kicked out would have been the right thing to do. It would have probably escalated a situation that he didn't intend on creating and wasn't consciously responsible for. Handling it so that the guy would have calmed down instead of threatening people would have been better for maintaining decorum and for helping the guy get over his PTSD.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#150

Post by salemh » Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 8:30 PM UTC

TomOfTTB wrote: post #140

acangiano wrote: post #94

A few thoughts: * This is one of the most factual, well written articles that I've encountered on the subject. * It's just sad to see socially awkward people manifest their sexual frustration in this manner. And it's even sadder to see that the few women we have in our profession feel threatened at conferences. The overwhelming majority of good people need to intervene to interrupt any form of harassment towards anyo…

I think you make a point that’s over looked here. As much as it’s PC to portray men and women as completely equal I think men who witness this behavior have a greater responsibility to step in. Our society has always defined “being a man” as taking on certain responsibilities and I think this is one of them. Further I think every father should teach his sons that they have a responsibility to be protective of women.…

This post needs more up voting, re: the responsibility of those around the conferences (or any every-day situation) to step in (as men) to the aid of a women being harassed. Women, physically (at a 99% level), are weaker then men (this may spawn a large discussion), but at the simplistic level, deserve to feel safe within public and private places.

I like to use an analogy when explaining the female mind to men who are not respectful of women's private space: imagine an 8 foot giant of a man whose only thoughts, leers, and actions speak to wanting to have sex with you (or rape you). Visualize that in your head, you may have a better appreciation for the "why's" of women and how they act in social circumstance.