Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE • Hacker News Board

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#201

Post by nojvek » Sat, Apr 06, 2019, 2:06 PM UTC

skrebbel wrote: post #183

js2 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a Washington state consumer protection law. Some Motel 6 locations in the state broke that law by handing over data to Federal officials without a warrant. The Federal officials broke no law in asking for the data without a warrant. It was the hotels which broke the law. Maybe you could make an entrapment argument against the Federal officials. IANAL, so I don't know how that works. (I guess it's not entrapme…

> The Federal officials broke no law in asking for the data without a warrant. It was the hotels which broke the law. I really don't understand this. How can it be legal for a government to ask its citizens to break the law?

It’s okay for Federal Officials to demand crap and expect a random citizen to know refusing what demands is a Felony and what isn’t?

I don’t even know how to differentiate between a real Federal Officer and a fake one.

What does a real court order look vs a fake one ?

If I cheat on my taxes, it’s my fault. If the federal officers do something knowingly they shouldn’t do. They should get sacked and fined.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#202

Post by cheez » Sat, Apr 06, 2019, 2:51 PM UTC

estebank wrote: post #164

cheez wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_%28surveillance_program%... The documents identified several technology companies as participants in the PRISM program, including Microsoft in 2007, Yahoo! in 2008, Google in 2009, Facebook in 2009, Paltalk in 2009, YouTube in 2010, AOL in 2011, Skype in 2011 and Apple in 2012.[22] The speaker's notes in the briefing document reviewed by The Washington Post indicated that "98 perce…

The implication being that all those companies were cooperating and not being inadvertently tapped. This is not a given and from what I've seen the later seemed more likely, without discounting the existence of companies that do cooperate on an ongoing basis.

The documents identified several technology companies as participants in the PRISM program

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#203

Post by ihm » Sat, Apr 06, 2019, 2:58 PM UTC

billner wrote: post #196

ihm wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are coming here because they think they can find a better life. What is the argument for trying to stop that? Also, the phrase "illegal alien" is extremely dehumanizing. These are just people.

Everyone in the world wants a better life. The reason for stopping it is the same reason all countries south of the US also have immigration laws.

Ok, sure, I agree all borders are problematic. So what reason is that?

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#204

Post by bluthru » Sat, Apr 06, 2019, 3:13 PM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #130

maccio92 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's in the damn name. Immigration enforcement. We have a legal immigration process in this country, many try to come here illegally. Without a border, you have no country.

You still have a border, just like the 50 US states have internal borders with each other. Why haven't they ceased to exist as discrete entities? Permeable borders abound in nature. Trying to obstruct the natural behavior of migration is as foolish as trying to halt the tides and arguably causes worse economic distortions than it solves.

The Netherlands is better off for having dikes.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#205

Post by idlewords » Sat, Apr 06, 2019, 5:34 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #127

jaclaz wrote: post #39

Only as a data point for comparison, here in Italy (due to a Law originally established in the '70's for counter-terrorism purposes) when you check in (in a hotel, B&B and similar[0]) you need a valid document and you are registered (name, surname, date and place of birth, current address and type and number of document) and this info is sent (nowadays electronically) to the Police within 24 hours. [0] a recent exten…

Yeah, we're ostensibly not big on that kind of surveillance here.

We run it unregulated in the private sector instead.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#206

Post by willstrafach » Sat, Apr 06, 2019, 7:02 PM UTC

cheez wrote: post #202

estebank wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The implication being that all those companies were cooperating and not being inadvertently tapped. This is not a given and from what I've seen the later seemed more likely, without discounting the existence of companies that do cooperate on an ongoing basis.

The documents identified several technology companies as participants in the PRISM program

> participants

To avoid giving the wrong impression to folks, it is worth noting that ‘participating’ means they produced requested communications on an ongoing basis pursuant to orders from a judge.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#207

Post by js2 » Sat, Apr 06, 2019, 7:32 PM UTC

skrebbel wrote: post #183

js2 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a Washington state consumer protection law. Some Motel 6 locations in the state broke that law by handing over data to Federal officials without a warrant. The Federal officials broke no law in asking for the data without a warrant. It was the hotels which broke the law. Maybe you could make an entrapment argument against the Federal officials. IANAL, so I don't know how that works. (I guess it's not entrapme…

> The Federal officials broke no law in asking for the data without a warrant. It was the hotels which broke the law. I really don't understand this. How can it be legal for a government to ask its citizens to break the law?

Police try to get citizens to incriminate themselves all the time: “Do you know why I pulled you over?” Posing as a drug buyer. And so forth. At the end of the day, it falls upon citizens to know their rights and the law. Ignorance of the law is not a valid defense.

I’m not saying whether I agree or disagree, just stating my understanding of how it works.

And yes, the imbalance of power is ridiculous.

Aside, if the Motel 6 employees had asked the ICE agents: “is it legal for me to give this to you without a warrant?” and the ICE agents had answered in the affirmative, then Motel 6 may have had an entrapment defense[1], but I’m not certain and IANAL.

1. http://www.uscivilliberties.org/themes/3750-entrapment-by-es...

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#208

Post by cheez » Sat, Apr 06, 2019, 7:46 PM UTC

willstrafach wrote: post #206

cheez wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The documents identified several technology companies as participants in the PRISM program

> participants To avoid giving the wrong impression to folks, it is worth noting that ‘participating’ means they produced requested communications on an ongoing basis pursuant to orders from a judge.

Thank you for clarifying. To clarify further, this is the FISA (secret) court that Will is referring to that also ended up rubber stamping surveillance of a political campaign.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#209

Post by patrickg_zill » Sat, Apr 06, 2019, 7:52 PM UTC

ihm wrote: post #185

patrickg_zill wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you believe that illegal aliens are coming to the US for the express purpose of civil disobedience (I think that is a fair summary of what Rosa Parks was doing), please show evidence of this.

People are coming here because they think they can find a better life. What is the argument for trying to stop that? Also, the phrase "illegal alien" is extremely dehumanizing. These are just people.

I just want a better life, too.

Can I have your stuff? Why not?

"Illegal alien" is a precise legal term which is used to accurately define a legal status. It's like saying that "convicted murderer" is dehumanizing...

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#210

Post by patrickg_zill » Sat, Apr 06, 2019, 7:57 PM UTC

ihm wrote: post #203

billner wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone in the world wants a better life. The reason for stopping it is the same reason all countries south of the US also have immigration laws.

Ok, sure, I agree all borders are problematic. So what reason is that?

Oh, so you are basically just a troll, then.

plonk