Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE • Hacker News Board

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#181

Post by smsm42 » Sat, Apr 06, 2019, 4:47 AM UTC

nostromo wrote: post #24

This is... strange. When the federal government comes asking for your help, I think it's pretty normal for people to provide that help. In a just world, if the government asks for something inappropriately, then the party at fault is the government. (In other words, Washington should sue ICE, not Motel 6.) If we want companies to require a subpoena to share information with the federal government (and personally I do…

> When the federal government comes asking for your help, I think it's pretty normal for people to provide that help.

Well, maybe they should not, if that help involves violation of other's right to privacy. If your ISP would "help" federal government to watch your communications without a court order, you might be justifiably upset.

Yes, telecoms are guilty in such behavior too, and largely are never punished. That doesn't mean it's ok.

> In other words, Washington should sue ICE, not Motel 6.

ICE has the right to ask. M6 should have answered "sure, gladly, as soon as we see that warrant".

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#182

Post by FakeComments » Sat, Apr 06, 2019, 5:15 AM UTC

sonnyblarney wrote: post #34

dragonwriter wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Could it be considered entrapment if Motel 6 was pressured into giving ICE the information? No, because ICE agents are not agents of the State of Washington, and the prosecution was by the State for violations of State law. ICE agents are, in terms of entrapment, no different than ISIS agents would be in this case. EDIT: Also no, because entrapment is a criminal defense, and this was a civil consumer protection cas…

"ICE agents are, in terms of entrapment, no different than ISIS agents would be in this case." ICE agents have some degree of lawful authority legally vested in them at some level of American governance, so it stands to reason that individuals can make the claim they felt 'required by some law' to do as that agency apparently behoved of them. Especially if ICE were making statements along the lines of 'you're legally…

Something a lot of people dont understand: US state governments aren’t part of the US federal government, in any capacity — they’re independent states in a union.

That’s why it’s strange here: ICE are agents of the federal government, who aren’t subject to state laws in the performance of their duty — Washington can’t stop ICE from doing their job, so instead they punish people who cooperate.

An analogy might be that mom and dad are fighting, and now punishing the kids who listen to the other parent.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#183

Post by skrebbel » Sat, Apr 06, 2019, 5:46 AM UTC

js2 wrote: post #68

nostromo wrote: post #24

This is... strange. When the federal government comes asking for your help, I think it's pretty normal for people to provide that help. In a just world, if the government asks for something inappropriately, then the party at fault is the government. (In other words, Washington should sue ICE, not Motel 6.) If we want companies to require a subpoena to share information with the federal government (and personally I do…

There's a Washington state consumer protection law. Some Motel 6 locations in the state broke that law by handing over data to Federal officials without a warrant. The Federal officials broke no law in asking for the data without a warrant. It was the hotels which broke the law. Maybe you could make an entrapment argument against the Federal officials. IANAL, so I don't know how that works. (I guess it's not entrapme…

> The Federal officials broke no law in asking for the data without a warrant. It was the hotels which broke the law.

I really don't understand this. How can it be legal for a government to ask its citizens to break the law?

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#184

Post by onetimemanytime » Sat, Apr 06, 2019, 5:48 AM UTC

bradlys wrote: post #15

Why would ICE run "latino-sounding" names through and not just all names through whatever ICE database they're cross-referencing? Did they get a 10,000 page print out instead of a spreadsheet file? (why not Scan + OCR + cross reference with database - would be way faster) Just seems like ICE employees are only targeting latinos... intentionally. And that's the most bothering part of this to me. We're cool with Swedes…

>>Just seems like ICE employees are only targeting latinos... intentionally. And that's the most bothering part of this to me. We're cool with Swedes overstaying their welcome...

Different teams deal with visa overstaying. In that area, most of illegal immigrants are almost certainly latinos. I guess that if a group of 14 Nigerian males showed up at Motel 6, they'd call ICE too.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#185

Post by ihm » Sat, Apr 06, 2019, 6:01 AM UTC

patrickg_zill wrote: post #162

cortesoft wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I assume you blame Rosa Parks for not sitting at the back of the bus? It was illegal to do what she did, so therefore she was a criminal. Not saying that has to be the case here, but just because something is against the law doesn't mean breaking it is morally bad.

If you believe that illegal aliens are coming to the US for the express purpose of civil disobedience (I think that is a fair summary of what Rosa Parks was doing), please show evidence of this.

People are coming here because they think they can find a better life. What is the argument for trying to stop that?

Also, the phrase "illegal alien" is extremely dehumanizing. These are just people.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#186

Post by ihm » Sat, Apr 06, 2019, 6:07 AM UTC

maccio92 wrote: post #79

omegaworks wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Enumerate those other purposes? Is one of them to privilege a white majority? Perhaps there's a reason so many call to abolish the institution.

It's in the damn name. Immigration enforcement. We have a legal immigration process in this country, many try to come here illegally. Without a border, you have no country.

Whatever the policy on the books is, we have a pretty clearly different actual policy resulting from the way ICE chooses to enforce the law: brown people who want to live here are treated strictly and with hostility and white people who want to live here are treated on the whole with more leniency.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#187

Post by SamReidHughes » Sat, Apr 06, 2019, 6:26 AM UTC

> Motel 6 also has signed a legally binding commitment to no longer share guest information without a warrant at any of its locations nationwide

That’s convenient. They’ve made other agreements with police departments to provide guest information at particular locations. This sounds like a way to prevent being subject to such shenanigans.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#188

Post by trhway » Sat, Apr 06, 2019, 6:38 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #108

lixtra wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So who from the federal government is charged for their part of the crime?

> So who from the federal government is charged for their part of the crime? What crime? The charges were for a civil violation of state consumer protection law, which restricted the behavior of the motel, not ICE. Even if ICE officials, in the federally-lawful conduct of their duties could be subject to state law, I don't see any indication that they did anything that would have broken the law at issue, which prohib…

>Even if ICE officials, in the federally-lawful conduct of their duties could be subject to state law, I don't see any indication that they did anything that would have broken the law at issue, which prohibits the disclosure, not the request.

i wonder whether the agents may be breaking any law if say the night manager informed them that he couldn't legally disclose the information, yet the agents would still pressure him into giving it up. Wouldn't the agents thus become participants of a conspiracy to violate that law [IANAL]?

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#189

Post by bloudermilk » Sat, Apr 06, 2019, 8:28 AM UTC

code_duck wrote: post #74

nostromo wrote: post #24

This is... strange. When the federal government comes asking for your help, I think it's pretty normal for people to provide that help. In a just world, if the government asks for something inappropriately, then the party at fault is the government. (In other words, Washington should sue ICE, not Motel 6.) If we want companies to require a subpoena to share information with the federal government (and personally I do…

Isn’t it your duty to protect the privacy of your data and your customers regardless of who is requesting data? I thought companies like Twitter and Google routinely rebuffed requests for information from government agencies and opposed restrictive rules, e.g. in China, and are praised for it. The concept of resisting government requests for information is well established. If the police called and asked for my custo…

> The concept of resisting government requests for information is well established.

Well established for whom? For many poor Americans, the thought of resisting a local PD seems impossible, let alone a federal agent who comes knocking. Try to imagine being on your night shift at a rural Motel 6 when a few strange individuals start waving badges, making requests, maybe threatening to escalate things if you don't play along. Maybe you would have the courage to stand up to them, but I think a lot of people would fall to the pressure and abide by the request. One big difference is privilege.

I believe ICE should be responsible for illegally attaining this information. They should also bear the cost of educating the Motel 6 workforce on their rights to resist requests from law enforcement agencies.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#190

Post by Ntrails » Sat, Apr 06, 2019, 8:30 AM UTC

code_duck wrote: post #74

nostromo wrote: post #24

This is... strange. When the federal government comes asking for your help, I think it's pretty normal for people to provide that help. In a just world, if the government asks for something inappropriately, then the party at fault is the government. (In other words, Washington should sue ICE, not Motel 6.) If we want companies to require a subpoena to share information with the federal government (and personally I do…

Isn’t it your duty to protect the privacy of your data and your customers regardless of who is requesting data? I thought companies like Twitter and Google routinely rebuffed requests for information from government agencies and opposed restrictive rules, e.g. in China, and are praised for it. The concept of resisting government requests for information is well established. If the police called and asked for my custo…

If the police called and asked me whether i'd seen [person fitting description] at my motel, i would answer honestly. If they had a name, i would check records. Want yesterdays cctv? No problems. I wouldn't care if they had a warrant, it is a totally reasonable set of things for them to ask for.

Complete customer lists are a data gathering exercise, not a query to investigate a 'lead'