Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

npr.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

191–200 of 224 posts

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#191

Post by code_duck »

bloudermilk wrote: post #189
code_duck wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t it your duty to protect the privacy of your data and your customers regardless of who is requesting data? I thought companies like Twitter and Google routinely rebuffed requests for information from government agencies and opposed restrictive rules, e.g. in China, and are praised for it. The concept of resisting government requests for information is well established. If the police called and asked for my custo…

> The concept of resisting government requests for information is well established. Well established for whom? For many poor Americans, the thought of resisting a local PD seems impossible, let alone a federal agent who comes knocking. Try to imagine being on your night shift at a rural Motel 6 when a few strange individuals start waving badges, making requests, maybe threatening to escalate things if you don't play…

Well established for companies who safeguard vast amounts of consumer data such as google and twitter, as I said.

Right, ‘The hotel said at the time that the practice was implemented "at the local level without the knowledge of senior management."‘

Obviously, if you are working at a motel and law enforcement enters and start demanding things, you -contact your supervisors-. Not sure how ‘privilege’ is involved, other than having the education or training to understand this. It’s possible that the individuals involved at the motel were not coerced and participated enthusiastically.

Of course ICE should also be obligated to follow the law and not encourage others to break it. However, it’s up to Motel 6 to train their employees, protect customers’ privacy and enforce their own policies.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#192

Post by evgen »

toyg wrote: post #166
code_duck wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t it your duty to protect the privacy of your data and your customers regardless of who is requesting data? I thought companies like Twitter and Google routinely rebuffed requests for information from government agencies and opposed restrictive rules, e.g. in China, and are praised for it. The concept of resisting government requests for information is well established. If the police called and asked for my custo…

> I thought companies like Twitter and Google routinely rebuffed requests for information Some, maybe. Definitely not all. Google reportedly has a system to let authorities access GMail. Similarly, Microsoft has been cooperating from pre-antitrust times, let alone now. And these are the richest companies in the world, with market caps in the hundreds of billions; they can afford to pay legions of top-level lawyers fo…

Large internet companies have a system that manages the process for LEO access, but your implication that they offer a "here's your login creds, grab whatever data you want" system is incorrect.

Google probably receives more subpoenas per hour than most companies receive over their entire lifetime, so of course they have a portal for handling such requests and managing the process.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#193

Post by op00to »

fataliss wrote: post #160
nostromo wrote: post #24

This is... strange. When the federal government comes asking for your help, I think it's pretty normal for people to provide that help. In a just world, if the government asks for something inappropriately, then the party at fault is the government. (In other words, Washington should sue ICE, not Motel 6.) If we want companies to require a subpoena to share information with the federal government (and personally I do…

Seriously, I would think too. Although I agree that maybe Motel 6 broke a law and should be held responsible for that, I'm also pretty sure that ICE fully knows and abuses of their position to extort information illegally out of people knowing no better. Imagine being a clerk or a manager at Motel 6, probably paid around minimum wage, potentially not very aware of state laws and having an ICE agent storm in and ask a…

> What do you do?

As a front desk person, refer to the laminated playbook card that explains to the LEO exactly what Motel 6's policy is. The card refers the front desk agent to request a warrant for any protected information. If LEO insists, call corporate legal, and comply if threatened with arrest. Make sure interaction is captured on security cameras.

Don't be facile. Of course anyone working the front desk at Motel 6 is going to be trained on what to do from now on.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#194

Post by billner »

drewrv wrote: post #82
paulddraper wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We're cool with Swedes overstaying their welcome... I think it has less to do with "being cool with Swedes", and more to do with the fact that illegal immigrants are -- statistically speaking -- overwhelming Hispanic, and anyone identifying illegals will have better results among Hispanics. I don't think anyone is more cool with a Swede conducting a terrorist attack than an Arab. Rather, any tenancy to profile Arab…

Actual statistics show most terrorists are not Arab, they're homegrown right-wingers. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/01/homegrown-...

The majority of terrorists/murders/rapists/etc in nearly every country will be whatever is the largest demographic. That's not surprising.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#195

Post by gpvos »

dragonwriter wrote: post #6
shawnz wrote: post #2

> "Motel 6's actions tore families apart and violated the privacy rights of tens of thousands of Washingtonians," What? I'm pretty sure ICE's actions were what tore those families apart. Why aren't they being punished for illegally requesting the data without a warrant? Maybe the Motel 6 employees who wrongfully gave the data felt pressured, given that ICE is a government agency just like the DOJ?

> Why aren't they being punished for illegally requesting the data without a warrant? It's generally not illegal for ICE (or government more generally) to request information without a warrant (not having a warrant or other compulsory basis just means people are not legally compelled to acquiesce to the request), and the state consumer protection law at issue neither purports to, nor could it Constitutionally, apply…

> the state consumer protection law at issue neither purports to, nor could it Constitutionally, apply to federal law enforcement agencies.

That baffles me. When a federal agent is in a state, they should be bound to the laws of that state. And additionally, it should be illegal for any government agent, federal, state, or local, to ask someone to do something illegal. How could that constitutionally be otherwise?

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#196

Post by billner »

ihm wrote: post #185
patrickg_zill wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you believe that illegal aliens are coming to the US for the express purpose of civil disobedience (I think that is a fair summary of what Rosa Parks was doing), please show evidence of this.

People are coming here because they think they can find a better life. What is the argument for trying to stop that? Also, the phrase "illegal alien" is extremely dehumanizing. These are just people.

Everyone in the world wants a better life. The reason for stopping it is the same reason all countries south of the US also have immigration laws.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#197

Post by JetSpiegel »

YeahSureWhyNot wrote: post #125
prolepunk wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, could you please directly link to the source. Second even if this number is accurate, it is misleading and I will attempt to put it in perspective. People are coming to us border to claim asylum. They are unable to do that because border agents are understaffed (it's been like that since 2015 during Obama administration) and can only accept so many applications. In the meantime they have to live in appa…

just because the conditions are appalling doesn't make doing illegal things okay. you don't see me break into my rich neighbors property and move into his garden cottage just because my house is in appalling condition.

It might be illegal, but it is morally right.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#198

Post by lotsofpulp »

skrebbel wrote: post #183
js2 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a Washington state consumer protection law. Some Motel 6 locations in the state broke that law by handing over data to Federal officials without a warrant. The Federal officials broke no law in asking for the data without a warrant. It was the hotels which broke the law. Maybe you could make an entrapment argument against the Federal officials. IANAL, so I don't know how that works. (I guess it's not entrapme…

> The Federal officials broke no law in asking for the data without a warrant. It was the hotels which broke the law. I really don't understand this. How can it be legal for a government to ask its citizens to break the law?

The concept that all people should be aware of all laws from all levels of government, and that the government is not the responsible one is so pompous to me. To expect a low wage employee, who is probably not well educated to rebuff people with badges in the moment who have the power to threaten you and disrupt your whole life is rich.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#199

Post by xxpor »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #198
skrebbel wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Federal officials broke no law in asking for the data without a warrant. It was the hotels which broke the law. I really don't understand this. How can it be legal for a government to ask its citizens to break the law?

The concept that all people should be aware of all laws from all levels of government, and that the government is not the responsible one is so pompous to me. To expect a low wage employee, who is probably not well educated to rebuff people with badges in the moment who have the power to threaten you and disrupt your whole life is rich.

That's why the company was fined, not the poor desk clerk.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#200

Post by nojvek »

code_duck wrote: post #191
bloudermilk wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The concept of resisting government requests for information is well established. Well established for whom? For many poor Americans, the thought of resisting a local PD seems impossible, let alone a federal agent who comes knocking. Try to imagine being on your night shift at a rural Motel 6 when a few strange individuals start waving badges, making requests, maybe threatening to escalate things if you don't play…

Well established for companies who safeguard vast amounts of consumer data such as google and twitter, as I said. Right, ‘The hotel said at the time that the practice was implemented "at the local level without the knowledge of senior management."‘ Obviously, if you are working at a motel and law enforcement enters and start demanding things, you -contact your supervisors-. Not sure how ‘privilege’ is involved, other…

It’s hard to keep up with laws. ICE is very much a bully, just like TSA is. They can make your life miserable for a while until you get yourself a lawyer (which most people can’t afford, and can’t lose time).

But then who’s gonna police the police ?

Post reply on HN