Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job • Hacker News Board

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#51

Post by vonseel » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 1:58 PM UTC

Pfhreak wrote: post #10

lovetocode wrote: post #6

Game developers let themselves be exploited with low pay and unpaid overtime. They should grow a spine and say no to ridiculous work conditions. I am tired of hearing about it. They don’t need to unionize, they need to realize that they have a unique and valuable skill set. If we are talking specifically about programmers, we have the fortunate leverage to tell our employers to go piss up a rope with the weekly job o…

Having worked in the industry they believe it's necessary. I got yoked into a mandated long weekend and was laughed out of the room when I demanded a retrospective. Long hours is a failure, we should know what failed so it doesn't happen again. Their response? That's just the way it is in games. Absolutely zero desire or acknowledgement that it should be different.

Long hours is a failure, we should know what failed so it doesn't happen again. Their response? That's just the way it is in games.

In my experience, that attitude is common and not limited to game developers or even programmers in general. American working culture tends to respect those who go above and beyond, or at least maintain the appearance of doing so.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#52

Post by lovetocode » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 1:58 PM UTC

maxehmookau wrote: post #47

lovetocode wrote: post #6

Game developers let themselves be exploited with low pay and unpaid overtime. They should grow a spine and say no to ridiculous work conditions. I am tired of hearing about it. They don’t need to unionize, they need to realize that they have a unique and valuable skill set. If we are talking specifically about programmers, we have the fortunate leverage to tell our employers to go piss up a rope with the weekly job o…

>They should grow a spine and say no to ridiculous work conditions. YES! You're absolutely right! > They don’t need to unionize. Err... Why on earth not? That would literally be the definition of growing a spine and saying no to ridiculous work conditions but also having it be effective.

I probably jumped the gun on the unionization part. I don’t know a lot about it but my impression of unions is not so bright. Maybe my ignorance is showing with that regard

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#53

Post by CodeCube » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 1:58 PM UTC

lovetocode wrote: post #32

ed312 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did exactly what you described. Unfortunately there is an endless supply of fresh grads (and even very talented amateurs with no schooling) willing to work absolutely slave-like conditions to "live the dream".

Fair enough and 100% true. It almost feels like we need to police up the expectations of junior developers and teach them proper work life balance. But they are going to do what they are going to do I suppose.

This should absolutely be an expectation set early on ... I often wish that our industry had an apprenticeship model, so that our senior talent would invest in training newcomers. Coming from the IC level would remove a perverse incentive for employers who offer on-the-job training to teach them to be compliant early on.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#54

Post by collyw » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 1:59 PM UTC

ed312 wrote: post #20

lovetocode wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A developer can go make crud web applications like the rest of us. There are options to get out of it they just don’t want to take them. I don’t know if this rings true for graphics artists, game designers, etc. But a programmer who develops game code can probably write a web app too without too much struggle

I did exactly what you described. Unfortunately there is an endless supply of fresh grads (and even very talented amateurs with no schooling) willing to work absolutely slave-like conditions to "live the dream".

Out if interest is writing games any more fun than writing web / database apps?

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#55

Post by madshiva » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 1:59 PM UTC

lovetocode wrote: post #6

Game developers let themselves be exploited with low pay and unpaid overtime. They should grow a spine and say no to ridiculous work conditions. I am tired of hearing about it. They don’t need to unionize, they need to realize that they have a unique and valuable skill set. If we are talking specifically about programmers, we have the fortunate leverage to tell our employers to go piss up a rope with the weekly job o…

In all working aera the fault is not on the employees but on the compagny period.

The fault is also on users that buy crap video game and make theses big compagny following this scheme you big win like Minecraft of work for nothing.

Same apply for movie/music industry. This are not there fault. If maybe you stop paying Apple for running a streming service and talking all the cake.

Users are more to be blammed than game developers.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#56

Post by ido » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 1:59 PM UTC

Pfhreak wrote: post #27

lovetocode wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s toxic culture at the leadership level. When my employer asks for some outrageous development on a compressed time schedule I speak my mind. Maybe that’s why most AAA games suck these days.

In my experience it was the ic level. Leadership would say, what's a reasonable timeline for feature x. The engineers would spend two hours arguing that estimates are bullshit, then give a trivially small (and obviously wrong) estimate. Leadership would say, are you sure? Engineers would basically flip them the bird and say yes. Then inevitably be late. I get it, estimating is inexact. But there's a clear difference…

A good project manager will wrestle a more realistic estimate from their developers before forwarding it to leadership.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#57

Post by kaitai » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 1:59 PM UTC

trpc wrote: post #3

Legally exploiting others and making a fortune is a dream job. EDIT: not my belief btw, this is how things mostly work in the business world but most people who do that aren't self conscious enough to recognize that

There are a lot of downvotes to this comment and I don't think it deserves it. I think the comment adds something substantive to the discussion. If you want to rise far in our economic system, a willingness or eagerness to figure out how to exploit others legally is a definite advantage. All the HN discussion here is about, "Those workers should find something else to do!" All about the self, maybe a bit about unions. But no one has mentioned the people at the very top who make money.

So, HNers, are all these companies closing (Telltale, Capcom Vancouver) because some courageous entrepreneur put their ethics, heart, and soul into a game company and just couldn't make it work, ending up penniless alongside their former employees? Or were they just not making "enough" money anymore? or what? What are the profits like in the game industry? Who gets them? If I follow the money, where does it go? Genuinely curious.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#58

Post by lovetocode » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 1:59 PM UTC

vonseel wrote: post #51

Pfhreak wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having worked in the industry they believe it's necessary. I got yoked into a mandated long weekend and was laughed out of the room when I demanded a retrospective. Long hours is a failure, we should know what failed so it doesn't happen again. Their response? That's just the way it is in games. Absolutely zero desire or acknowledgement that it should be different.

Long hours is a failure, we should know what failed so it doesn't happen again. Their response? That's just the way it is in games. In my experience, that attitude is common and not limited to game developers or even programmers in general. American working culture tends to respect those who go above and beyond, or at least maintain the appearance of doing so.

You hit the nail on the head!

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#59

Post by bubblewrap » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 1:59 PM UTC

sageabilly wrote: post #9

lovetocode wrote: post #6

Game developers let themselves be exploited with low pay and unpaid overtime. They should grow a spine and say no to ridiculous work conditions. I am tired of hearing about it. They don’t need to unionize, they need to realize that they have a unique and valuable skill set. If we are talking specifically about programmers, we have the fortunate leverage to tell our employers to go piss up a rope with the weekly job o…

If every single employer has the same work conditions, then what? If the state of the industry as a whole is low pay and unpaid overtime, then it's not like a developer can just go to a better job.

The answer is, get a valuable skill set. If you are the only neurosurgeon in the world, and somebody needs a brain tumor removed, I'd like to see them try offer a minimum wage for the operation.

It's people's own responsibility to make themselves valuable. It's nice if some people offer pathways to becoming valuable (education, traineeships, whatever), but I don't see how anybody would be entitled to it. That would imply somebody would be responsible for delivering it, and who should that be? Why would anybody be responsible for it?

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#60

Post by jbattle » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 1:59 PM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #19

Pfhreak wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having worked in the industry they believe it's necessary. I got yoked into a mandated long weekend and was laughed out of the room when I demanded a retrospective. Long hours is a failure, we should know what failed so it doesn't happen again. Their response? That's just the way it is in games. Absolutely zero desire or acknowledgement that it should be different.

If they're wrong in thinking that it's necessary, then anyone who comes in with an enlightened view will put them out of business and take over the market.

Game developers don't stay in business by being great places to work. They stay in business by staying afloat long enough to get one .. more .. game to market. I know Firaxis (makers of Civilization) has at least once laid off large parts of their development crew once the game is substantially complete.