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Oil traders are watching workers’ phones to spot problems at refineries

bloomberg.com

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Re: Oil traders are watching workers’ phones to spot problems at refineries

#101

Post by AznHisoka »

tantalor wrote: post #83
anigbrowl wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This won't meet the elements of fraud in the US because while you could argue that the performative activity was a deliberate representation (in contrast to a false claim where I tell you directly about a great deal on a bridge that doesn't really exist), you'll have trouble establishing the detrimental reliance aspect. If you see misleading activity and then jump to an incorrect conclusion instead of verifying its t…

Not true if the other party stands to profit from the misleading activity. For example, pump & dump https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pump_and_dump

But these guys wouldnt be broadcasting this to everyone - just the people who were idiotic enough to look at the spoofed data. They are conducting acts (albeit crazy ones) in a private setting. Technically, thats really what they are doing, and it would be hard to prove otherwise.

Re: Oil traders are watching workers’ phones to spot problems at refineries

#102

Post by wp381640 »

DontGiveTwoFlux wrote: post #89
darkpuma wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once read an argument (maybe here on HN, I'm not sure) that if insider trading were legal, Enron wouldn't have taken anybody by surprise. I'm not sure I buy the argument that it should consequently be legal, but it's an interesting idea.

On the other hand, consider how rare the Enron case seems to be. Since it's implosion, how many other companies were based on total fraud? Theranos is all that comes to mind and it wasn't even public. It seems like the system mostly prevents massive Enron style fraud.

heaps of public companies turn out to be frauds, there is an entire industry out there of people spotting fraudulent stocks and shorting them (see Muddy Waters, Citron research et al)

Sino-Forest has probably been the largest and most well known (as well as Valeant and their fake pharmacies) along with a bunch of Chinese small-medium-cap reverse IPO's like CCME

Re: Oil traders are watching workers’ phones to spot problems at refineries

#103

Post by AznHisoka »

tantalor wrote: post #27
blantonl wrote: post #4

How are they gathering this data? Are they placing detection equipment at/near the target locations to monitor for cell phone signatures in the vicinity, or are they gathering from mobile apps who resell location data to aggregation firms?

"through vendors" (sloppy reporting, passive voice)

They didnt disclose the vendors because they actually are reselling the same data in their Bloomberg terminal :)

Re: Oil traders are watching workers’ phones to spot problems at refineries

#104

Post by darkpuma »

DontGiveTwoFlux wrote: post #89
darkpuma wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once read an argument (maybe here on HN, I'm not sure) that if insider trading were legal, Enron wouldn't have taken anybody by surprise. I'm not sure I buy the argument that it should consequently be legal, but it's an interesting idea.

On the other hand, consider how rare the Enron case seems to be. Since it's implosion, how many other companies were based on total fraud? Theranos is all that comes to mind and it wasn't even public. It seems like the system mostly prevents massive Enron style fraud.

Total fraud isn't the only sort of corporate fraud though. Legalized insider trading would really open the floodgates for financially incentivized 'whistle-blowing' of any sort of fraud (as well as basically anything else that could conceivably move the market...)

Re: Oil traders are watching workers’ phones to spot problems at refineries

#105

Post by oarabbus_ »

maxerickson wrote: post #50
maxerickson wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course people smoke where it doesn't make much sense. I mean, think about it for a second.

ITT, people love their nic-o-tine.

No, people just have an issue with the pretentious way you're making your case.

Re: Oil traders are watching workers’ phones to spot problems at refineries

#106

Post by zaphirplane »

anigbrowl wrote: post #100
tantalor wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true if the other party stands to profit from the misleading activity. For example, pump & dump https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pump_and_dump

Good point, but I'm not sure if fake market behavior (along with the direct exhortations to participation) directly maps onto fake real world behavior with no solicitation. As a (somewhat ridiculous) counter example, suppose I know you, a trader, love tap dancing and I, also a trader, happen to be a skilled tap dancer. On Monday I show up outside your office and start tapping up a storm. You are unable to resist the…

I don’t know why people think it’s ok to intend to commit fraud, intend to swindle someone, do it. Then have a long song and dance about how the fraud committed wasn’t actually fraud

Let’s make it simple you intend to commit murder, you buy the tools, draw up a plan, then get arrested. Guess what you are up for with zero interaction with the victim

Re: Oil traders are watching workers’ phones to spot problems at refineries

#107

Post by stcredzero »

ghostly_s wrote: post #93
etskinner wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're loosely describing BIM (Building information modeling)[1], but you definitely bring up some novel points that aren't covered by existing BIM softwares, to my knowledge. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Building_information_modeling

Yeah, this is pretty much what a plethora of punchlisting platforms do currently, but in the form of annotated photos captured on an iPad and automatically tagged to the site plan rather than realtime video feeds (which is both more practical and preferable from a liability standpoint, as the GC and architect both have incentive to maintain a paper trail of who approved X change, etc.) The AR angle certainly sounds c…

photos captured on an iPad and automatically tagged to the site plan rather than realtime video feeds (which is both more practical and preferable from a liability standpoint, as the GC and architect both have incentive to maintain a paper trail of who approved X change, etc.)

There's no reason why the realtime video feed and the voice communication between the architect and GC couldn't be tagged and timestamped as well.

The AR angle certainly sounds cool but even aside from the HW not being there yet, I'm not sure how it would add much value.

For plans/models which have some 3D complexity, being able to crane your neck and move your POV around might be valuable for understanding exactly what's going on. This might be more applicable to building the 1st iteration of something like a large jetliner than to a building, though I've heard of situations in the building of stadiums where this would've been applicable.

The point is really to save the project time by letting the workers ask clarifying questions quickly, while enabling engineers and architects to understand the situation quickly, all while communicating in realtime. The turnaround for answering such questions probably couldn't get faster than that.

Re: Oil traders are watching workers’ phones to spot problems at refineries

#108

Post by tantalor »

AznHisoka wrote: post #101
tantalor wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true if the other party stands to profit from the misleading activity. For example, pump & dump https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pump_and_dump

But these guys wouldnt be broadcasting this to everyone - just the people who were idiotic enough to look at the spoofed data. They are conducting acts (albeit crazy ones) in a private setting. Technically, thats really what they are doing, and it would be hard to prove otherwise.

How can you claim privacy if the scam depends on being observed?

Re: Oil traders are watching workers’ phones to spot problems at refineries

#109

Post by pj_mukh »

stcredzero wrote: post #30

I've envisioned an application like the following for construction sites and industrial installations: There would be a "supervisor" app with a schematic 3D model of the site, with dots or tags indicating the location of smartphones of workers, who have installed a satellite app. There would be messaging between the satellite apps and the supervisor app, and a worker with a satellite app could stream video or post pi…

This is being built out as we speak!

https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:ugcPost:65120040...

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