Oil traders are watching workers’ phones to spot problems at refineries • Hacker News Board

Re: Oil traders are watching workers’ phones to spot problems at refineries

#91

Post by TheCapn » Thu, Mar 28, 2019, 9:12 PM UTC

alasdair_ wrote: post #62

C1sc0cat wrote: post #11

Why would you allow a mobile phone with its spark hazard any where near an oil refinery.

Are phones actually spark hazards? I remember a mythbusters episode where they filled an outbuilding with dozens of different cellphones and lots and lots of open cannisters of gasoline and other petrochemicals, then called them all repeatedly without incident. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjrkwxMhc4s I'm sure there are parts of a refinery where even static electricity could be enough to set something off but I'd…

In realm of electronics regulations the devices in those areas have to be proven safe first, not assumed safe until an incident occurs.

Re: Oil traders are watching workers’ phones to spot problems at refineries

#92

Post by smartscience » Thu, Mar 28, 2019, 9:21 PM UTC

tomsthumb wrote: post #79

doovd wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is called spoofing and is illegal.

From a place of total ignorance, why would telegraphing a particular false strategy to your competitor in order to get them to respond in a way that is profitable to you be illegal?

Also, how would you ever prove it?

Re: Oil traders are watching workers’ phones to spot problems at refineries

#93

Post by ghostly_s » Thu, Mar 28, 2019, 9:24 PM UTC

etskinner wrote: post #81

stcredzero wrote: post #30

I've envisioned an application like the following for construction sites and industrial installations: There would be a "supervisor" app with a schematic 3D model of the site, with dots or tags indicating the location of smartphones of workers, who have installed a satellite app. There would be messaging between the satellite apps and the supervisor app, and a worker with a satellite app could stream video or post pi…

You're loosely describing BIM (Building information modeling)[1], but you definitely bring up some novel points that aren't covered by existing BIM softwares, to my knowledge. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Building_information_modeling

Yeah, this is pretty much what a plethora of punchlisting platforms do currently, but in the form of annotated photos captured on an iPad and automatically tagged to the site plan rather than realtime video feeds (which is both more practical and preferable from a liability standpoint, as the GC and architect both have incentive to maintain a paper trail of who approved X change, etc.) The AR angle certainly sounds cool but even aside from the HW not being there yet, I'm not sure how it would add much value.

Re: Oil traders are watching workers’ phones to spot problems at refineries

#94

Post by jedberg » Thu, Mar 28, 2019, 9:30 PM UTC

rando444 wrote: post #85

A clever person could defeat this entire system in a day. If you look at the graph, currently we're talking about a fluctuation of about 7 devices. All you'd have to do is set up a handful of devices (or emulate them and spoof the GPS).. download some sketchy apps, or look for apps that have ties to this company, to bump the location information up. Then turn the devices on or off, so that there's never any change. I…

If you're the oil company you probably don't care one bit if a trader is making money on the price of oil, because it isn't coming out of the oil companies profits. It's coming from other traders.

Re: Oil traders are watching workers’ phones to spot problems at refineries

#95

Post by walshemj » Thu, Mar 28, 2019, 9:31 PM UTC

nitrogen wrote: post #64

C1sc0cat wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just buy a load of cheap burner phones and fake out the data - use some cheap drones to make them move around :-) A bit like some people hire actors to pretend you have more employees.

A bit like some people hire actors to pretend you have more employees. Could you expand on this or link to an example? It seems like this wouldn't be cost effective (or useful).

You do it when trying to get investment have fake employees come in to make it look like you have more employees.

Re: Oil traders are watching workers’ phones to spot problems at refineries

#96

Post by megaremote » Thu, Mar 28, 2019, 9:39 PM UTC

DontGiveTwoFlux wrote: post #89

darkpuma wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once read an argument (maybe here on HN, I'm not sure) that if insider trading were legal, Enron wouldn't have taken anybody by surprise. I'm not sure I buy the argument that it should consequently be legal, but it's an interesting idea.

On the other hand, consider how rare the Enron case seems to be. Since it's implosion, how many other companies were based on total fraud? Theranos is all that comes to mind and it wasn't even public. It seems like the system mostly prevents massive Enron style fraud.

You mean, how many companies have been outed as being based on total fraud.

Re: Oil traders are watching workers’ phones to spot problems at refineries

#97

Post by megaremote » Thu, Mar 28, 2019, 9:41 PM UTC

akadeb wrote: post #26

maxerickson wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course people smoke where it doesn't make much sense. I mean, think about it for a second.

I thought about it and couldn't figure out why it's obvious. Care to share some light on that?

They are saying it doesn't make any sense for anyone to smoke anywhere.

Re: Oil traders are watching workers’ phones to spot problems at refineries

#98

Post by 1stcity3rdcoast » Thu, Mar 28, 2019, 9:48 PM UTC

tomsthumb wrote: post #79

doovd wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is called spoofing and is illegal.

From a place of total ignorance, why would telegraphing a particular false strategy to your competitor in order to get them to respond in a way that is profitable to you be illegal?

Because you’re not just telegraphing it to your competitor, you’re moving the entire market and affecting the bid/ask and price transparency for all its participants. That affects liquidity, derivatives, a lot of downstream negatives.

That said, there are narrow instances where you can place less-than-real orders in a market [0]... it just has to be a market that is nearly and completely illiquid.

[0] https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-12-04/trying...

Re: Oil traders are watching workers’ phones to spot problems at refineries

#99

Post by johnrgrace » Thu, Mar 28, 2019, 10:03 PM UTC

exhilaration wrote: post #2

I'm confused, throughout the article it mentions contractors being in oil facilities. But it also says "Orbital receives location data without any personal identification information and aggregates it." So how do they know these people are contractors? Or are they just measuring the raw number of people in the oil facilities?

You don't really need to know they are contractors, they are looking for a jump in the number of people onsite because access is controlled. A major turnaround or outage will bring in hundreds of extra contractors for days at a time.

Re: Oil traders are watching workers’ phones to spot problems at refineries

#100

Post by anigbrowl » Thu, Mar 28, 2019, 10:10 PM UTC

tantalor wrote: post #83

anigbrowl wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This won't meet the elements of fraud in the US because while you could argue that the performative activity was a deliberate representation (in contrast to a false claim where I tell you directly about a great deal on a bridge that doesn't really exist), you'll have trouble establishing the detrimental reliance aspect. If you see misleading activity and then jump to an incorrect conclusion instead of verifying its t…

Not true if the other party stands to profit from the misleading activity. For example, pump & dump https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pump_and_dump

Good point, but I'm not sure if fake market behavior (along with the direct exhortations to participation) directly maps onto fake real world behavior with no solicitation.

As a (somewhat ridiculous) counter example, suppose I know you, a trader, love tap dancing and I, also a trader, happen to be a skilled tap dancer. On Monday I show up outside your office and start tapping up a storm. You are unable to resist the sound of your favorite thing and rush out of your office to enjoy my performance. I return at the same hour Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, and by then you are out on the sidewalk expecting me when I show up. Friday you leave your office as usual but you wait for me to show in vain, for I am in my office and taking advantage of your absence to make a big trade against you.

Have I defrauded you? You believed that I would show up to entertain you instead of competing against you in the market, and frankly I trained you to think so only to enrich myself at your expense.