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Fuck The Vessel

thebaffler.com

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Re: Fuck The Vessel

#121

Post by cgb223 »

caprese wrote: post #17
walterbell wrote: post #6

From https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/hudson-ya... > Hudson Yards is a private space masquerading as a public one ... In reality it is an enclave, a high-end corporate park buoyed by six billion dollars in tax breaks—an amount that dwarfs the subsidies offered to Amazon for its scuttled Queens headquarters—and designed as a kind of amenity-stuffed Hotel California that its residents never have to le…

> an amount that dwarfs the subsidies offered to Amazon one thing I really love about NYC is how easy it is to deflect attention and get what you want exhibit A: "tech workers" make the same amount in NYC as they do in the Bay Area, they fly completely under the radar and the inequality warriors point fingers at finance instead, serving to highlight the fickle nature of an unorganized protest where the cause/perpetua…

> "tech workers" make the same amount in NYC as they do in the Bay Area

Is the housing any cheaper? If so I'm moving

Re: Fuck The Vessel

#122

Post by notyourday »

zwkrt wrote: post #102
notyourday wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't. They are from people who are stretching themselves into mortgages and those McMansions in the middle of nowhere are 250k-300k tops. They aren't three million dollar houses.

Yes but in the "middle of nowhere" these houses are owned by the middle-of-nowhere gentry. Saying something that is 300k is not expensive shows a lack of perspective I see a lot in this corner of the internet. Growing up in a rural town, my friends parents rented an apartment multiple towns over because they couldn't afford to live in my town (pop. 5k, surrounded by corn fields). All the problems we think are unique…

The problem is that we have a class of intelligentsia such as the author of this piece who thinks she knows better how the rest should live. It is a typical elitist attitude.

300k is not an expensive house. It is 6x 50k/year salary, which is the current not really even stretching for mortgage. In NYC 5k square feet house would cost ~4M if it is in Brooklyn or Queens and it would be much worse than McMansion but I'm sure the OP would be thinking it is wonderful because it is located in NYC.

Re: Fuck The Vessel

#123

Post by notyourday »

SiempreViernes wrote: post #101
notyourday wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like a good response: https://nypost.com/2019/03/23/the-architecture-snobs-got-hud...

Ha! He doesn't even use an actual picture of the finished thing, such is the depth of his interest in the subject. And four days after opening is a rather short time to wait before declaring "mission accomplished" on something that is supposed to endure .

Photos of the Vessel are all over NY Post, Gothamist, etc.

Re: Fuck The Vessel

#124

Post by cam_l »

deogeo wrote: post #120
cam_l wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Does the traditional facade somehow prevent smaller offices? Well, yes. Light, servicing, ventilation. A modern floor plate is up to 40m usable depth. A historic floor plate 8-10m usable depth, and only half of that with a window. >Neo-classicists Read some history from wikipedia.. >The term "Neoclassical" was not invented until the mid-19th century, and at the time the style was described by such terms as "the true…

> A modern floor plate is up to 40m usable depth. A historic floor plate 8-10m usable depth, and only half of that with a window. Sorry, you'll have to explain more. Why is a historic floor plate smaller? And why does a window on the facade make it smaller still? How does the facade affect the floor plate?

>Sorry, you'll have to explain more.

Like all things, Architecture is a rabbit hole. Every decision has a knock on effect.

The floor plate depth is directly related to the amount of light and heat required. The ceiling heights need to be taller to allow ventilation (not feeling too stuffy). The windows need to be taller to let enough light and heat in, the taller the windows the more structure required between them to function (without steel of course). The unobstructed open area of the floor plate is limited to around 6m because you are using timber or stone arches to support the upper floor or roof.

And sure, you can paste on a façade and use modern structure and servicing to get you halfway there, but then all of a sudden, the proportions of you Neoclassical, revivalist building are all out of whack. The inside of your building (arguably the part that matters to the inhabitants) still looks like a modern office, with a paper thin layer of stone stuck to the front obscuring your view. That, to be honest, is how we got McMansions.

Re: Fuck The Vessel

#125

Post by geofft »

caprese wrote: post #111
geofft wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "tech workers" make the same amount in NYC as they do in the Bay Area, they fly completely under the radar and the inequality warriors point fingers at finance instead As someone in both (my day job is keeping OpenStack working at a hedge fund) and who's been in both job markets: this is because finance actually is the richest. There's literally no point in fixing tech worker salaries in NYC if you're not going to…

> Walmart competes with local businesses. Gucci does not. Sure, lets go down this rabbit hole separately. What about the Target locations, the massive multi-story Home Depot on 23rd st taking up half a block, Bed Bath & Beyond, Ikea... I was certainly lost on the actual distinction people were making and that extends to you. Whatever permitting process was involved flew right past anyone that cares passionately about…

Sure, I agree with that.

Re: Fuck The Vessel

#126

Post by geofft »

Thriptic wrote: post #92
tobr wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your quote is a straw man, but what does it matter if jealousy is involved or not? You can disregard any animosity stemming from social injustices with that logic. Women are just straight up jealous because men are paid more. Blacks are just straight up jealous because whites have longer life expectancy. LGBTs are just straight up jealous because straight cis people don’t have to conceal a central part of who they ar…

I think my interpretation of the thread was that anger towards people with money just for having money was legitimate. If your thought is that those people are actively retarding the ability of the poor to improve their situation, then I think you have some ground to stand on, but otherwise I don't think it is reasonable. I think it's ok to wish things were different; I think it's ok to be angry at a system; I think…

> I don't think it's ok to be angry at people who haven't personally done you wrong just because they have something you don't

The difference with wealth is that you can choose to become unwealthy on a moment's notice. So each day you remain wealthy is, itself, a choice. And the process of becoming unwealthy itself has direct benefits for the poor.

A white person cannot choose to become black and thereby remove oppression. A straight person who does not marry does not thereby yield the ability to marry to a gay couple. Even someone assigned male at birth who decides to present as female does not get to transfer her former male privilege to anyone in the process.

But someone who can afford a $10M condo that is as functional as (being generous) a $1M condo could directly transfer that $9M to people who don't have a place to live at all. So their choice not to do that—their choice to merely have money—is a decision we can justly evaluate morally, in a way we cannot evaluate merely having white skin or male presentation morally.

In my religious tradition, in our ritual confession of our faults, we apologize "for what I have done and for what I have failed to do." There is a story of a rich man who dutifully kept the ancient laws but refused to sell his possessions to the poor, and chose his possessions over the way of the religion. To remain rich (at least beyond one's needs and beyond the needs of one's credible plans to help the world) is an active choice, and can be criticized as any other choice.

Re: Fuck The Vessel

#127

Post by notyourday »

cgb223 wrote: post #121
caprese wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> an amount that dwarfs the subsidies offered to Amazon one thing I really love about NYC is how easy it is to deflect attention and get what you want exhibit A: "tech workers" make the same amount in NYC as they do in the Bay Area, they fly completely under the radar and the inequality warriors point fingers at finance instead, serving to highlight the fickle nature of an unorganized protest where the cause/perpetua…

> "tech workers" make the same amount in NYC as they do in the Bay Area Is the housing any cheaper? If so I'm moving

2400 sq feet two story 3 bd/2ba apartment with 30 minutes commute to Google via subway $4k/mo

Re: Fuck The Vessel

#128

Post by whack »

aphextron wrote: post #74
whack wrote: post #39

This article is a perfect encapsulation of our current culture of contempt. It is no longer sufficient, or even possible, to just disagree or have different tastes. "I'm personally not a big fan of that building's aesthetics, but maybe there are others who do like it." That would have been a reasonable opinion to hold... instead we have: "Designed by Thomas Heatherwick, one of architecture’s premier grifters... The d…

Great writers have a firmly defined opinion, and make it well known through prose. There’s nothing worse than reading some milquetoast overview of an issue in the name of “fairness”. Not all problems have multiple valid points of view. Some things are either right or wrong, and it’s left to critics to pick a side.

Some things are indeed objective, and the author has failed utterly in pointing out any of the building's objective flaws.

Meanwhile, other things are inherently subjective, which means that by definition, there is no right or wrong answer. Treating an architect with contempt for purely subjective reasons, is not a mark of a "great writer" in any way.

Re: Fuck The Vessel

#129

Post by deogeo »

cam_l wrote: post #124
deogeo wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A modern floor plate is up to 40m usable depth. A historic floor plate 8-10m usable depth, and only half of that with a window. Sorry, you'll have to explain more. Why is a historic floor plate smaller? And why does a window on the facade make it smaller still? How does the facade affect the floor plate?

>Sorry, you'll have to explain more. Like all things, Architecture is a rabbit hole. Every decision has a knock on effect. The floor plate depth is directly related to the amount of light and heat required. The ceiling heights need to be taller to allow ventilation (not feeling too stuffy). The windows need to be taller to let enough light and heat in, the taller the windows the more structure required between them t…

Does this apply to all styles except the steel-and-glass Modern style? E.g. what about the Chrysler and Empire State buildings? And new residential buildings look very different from office buildings, but presumably don't cost an order of magnitude more per usable m^2 - is there something about office/commercial building requirements that tilts the preference towards Modern style?

Re: Fuck The Vessel

#130

Post by Spooky23 »

sokoloff wrote: post #58
Spooky23 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hudson Yards is way more than a standard tax break bonanza. Tax-free City and state authority bonds were issued to finance it. The Amazon deal was all about NYS politics and the changes in leadership in the state legislature.

That the bonds are tax-free is a choice by the municipal issuer (because it’s to their advantage to do so). They could issue commercial taxable bonds, but why would they? It would only increase their borrowing costs.

The point is that unlike in the Amazon deal, this was tax abatement plus revenue bonds held on the government books.
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