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Fuck The Vessel

thebaffler.com

111–120 of 136 posts

Re: Fuck The Vessel

#111
post #44
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> an amount that dwarfs the subsidies offered to Amazon one thing I really love about NYC is how easy it is to deflect attention and get what you want exhibit A: "tech workers" make the same amount in NYC as they do in the Bay Area, they fly completely under the radar and the inequality warriors point fingers at finance instead, serving to highlight the fickle nature of an unorganized protest where the cause/perpetua…

> "tech workers" make the same amount in NYC as they do in the Bay Area, they fly completely under the radar and the inequality warriors point fingers at finance instead As someone in both (my day job is keeping OpenStack working at a hedge fund) and who's been in both job markets: this is because finance actually is the richest. There's literally no point in fixing tech worker salaries in NYC if you're not going to…

> Walmart competes with local businesses. Gucci does not.

Sure, lets go down this rabbit hole separately.

What about the Target locations, the massive multi-story Home Depot on 23rd st taking up half a block, Bed Bath & Beyond, Ikea... I was certainly lost on the actual distinction people were making and that extends to you.

Whatever permitting process was involved flew right past anyone that cares passionately about this topic in support of local.

Re: Fuck The Vessel

#112
post #44
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> an amount that dwarfs the subsidies offered to Amazon one thing I really love about NYC is how easy it is to deflect attention and get what you want exhibit A: "tech workers" make the same amount in NYC as they do in the Bay Area, they fly completely under the radar and the inequality warriors point fingers at finance instead, serving to highlight the fickle nature of an unorganized protest where the cause/perpetua…

> "tech workers" make the same amount in NYC as they do in the Bay Area, they fly completely under the radar and the inequality warriors point fingers at finance instead As someone in both (my day job is keeping OpenStack working at a hedge fund) and who's been in both job markets: this is because finance actually is the richest. There's literally no point in fixing tech worker salaries in NYC if you're not going to…

> It would be unprincipled and ideological if people complained about tech salaries in NYC simply because tech is widely disliked, even when there's a bigger target to go after.

Target bingo is uncoordinated and dilutive.

> this is because finance actually is the richest

Exactly. This would really be making fun of the bay area's or anywhere else's ease switching the disdain.

It makes it harder to subscribe to one locality's issues masqueraded as the unique behavior of a particular industry.

Re: Fuck The Vessel

#113

>It is a Vessel for the depths of architectural cynicism, of form without ideology and without substance: an architectural practice that puts the commodifiable image above all else, including the social good, aesthetic expression, and meaningful public space or maybe it's just some staircases

Yep. That's all it is. Just some staircases. Cost a couple million dollars and was endlessly hyped by the city and architectural press. Just some staircases - nothing more. Why write articles about it? It's just staircases! It's not related to any issues at all with the city - just some staircases that showed up one day!

Re: Fuck The Vessel

#114

“Fuck the vessel” can be taken more than one way. But that aside, I think is is great to have something weird in a city you can go visit. Something unusual that isn’t a business or a residence or a road. I think people stuck in a city all the time are missing out on nature, but something like the Vessel is an opportubity to escape and do something pointless for a few minutes.

It's a selfie station in the middle of a giant mall that is in a neighborhood of empty high rises in one of the busiest most touristy part of the city. It's not an opportunity to escape.

Re: Fuck The Vessel

#115
I can't make heads or tails of this. The author clearly has an ax to grind, that much is clear. But since she dislikes—no, hates—everything about this project, it's kinda hard to tell what the actual issue is.

It feels tribal. This thing is associated with a group I hate, so it's ugly, shallow, stupid, pointless, corrupt, and in every way unclean.

Yeesh.

Re: Fuck The Vessel

#116
post #91
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It started life as a style called internationalist. It is brought to you by the same people that champion open plan offices. They are cheaper to build than traditional style buildings, by an order of magnitude. But critically allow for maximising flexible floor space for optimum returns. Architects don't really have much power in the design of these kind of buildings beyond window dressing. Edit. Also, refer to the a…

> They are cheaper to build than traditional style buildings, by an order of magnitude. Are they? According to [1,2 (especially last post)] (better sources welcome) traditional style is cheaper, and according to [3], there's bias against traditional architecture. Besides, it's the "window dressing", that architects supposedly have power over, that's the ugliest part of modern architecture. Edit: As seen in https://ww…

>Are they?

Yes, they can be.. providing you are comparing apples with apples. According to [0].

But that is not really satisfying without numbers is it?

So lets take the first example linked in your reddit post. The Potsdamer Palace. It is the most interesting example as they went to some effort [1] to reconstruct the facade as closely to the original design as possible, including the brickwork skin and hand finished stonework. Of course internally it is all concrete and steel, but you would never know that from looking at it.

Built for €120m [2], 35,000sqm GFA, 19,000sqm utilities (a wopping 35%) and only 390 offices. About €2500/sqm for the construction price, but at about €200,000 per office. A standard low rise office in germany seems to be close to the €1500/sqm range. But you would expect more like 20-25% utilities floor area and lets say 1 person/10sqm (ie. open plan office seat) for occupation. So for the same size office built with standard construction techniques, this floor area would be about €70m including utilities, but only €15,000 per office. (if you calculate out the €200k /office of the example with the 3500 offices of the standard office, that is a €1,076m price, ie. at least an order of magnitude).

Ok, so we are not talking about a typical office building here. It is also very significant that the examples chosen were all institutional, rather than commercial ie.the symbol was more important than the return. The point is that the original construction techniques required significant additional human labour, additional area for structure, but also light, servicing, and ventilation, and additional costly materials. All with a reduced usable internal floor area.

But sure, just stick something on the façade and call it a day right? But, if you already have a working façade system which gives you more saleable floor area, as a developer, you would sack the architect that proposes something else. So yeah, we have some power over the façade, but not that much.

So I guess the resistance to 'traditional' is mostly in the ''s. But also in that contemporary architects often care about process and user experience over formal traditions.

The other funny thing about this argument, is that the very same objections were held towards modern architecture in the time of the original construction of the Potsdamer. It was broadly in the style of the late Roccoco (in particular, a Prussian variant), which the Neo-classicists thought was ugly and modern. The Neo-classicists looked back, copying the original renaissance classicists of course, who were copying the styles of the ancient Romans, who had migrated a good deal from the ancient Egyptians via the Greeks. Taste is an old argument.

[0] me, working in the industry for 20yrs.

[1] https://www.landtag.brandenburg.de/en/parliament_building/84...

[2] https://www.landtag.brandenburg.de/media_fast/5701/Schriften...

Re: Fuck The Vessel

#117
post #116
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They are cheaper to build than traditional style buildings, by an order of magnitude. Are they? According to [1,2 (especially last post)] (better sources welcome) traditional style is cheaper, and according to [3], there's bias against traditional architecture. Besides, it's the "window dressing", that architects supposedly have power over, that's the ugliest part of modern architecture. Edit: As seen in https://ww…

>Are they? Yes, they can be.. providing you are comparing apples with apples. According to [0]. But that is not really satisfying without numbers is it? So lets take the first example linked in your reddit post. The Potsdamer Palace. It is the most interesting example as they went to some effort [1] to reconstruct the facade as closely to the original design as possible, including the brickwork skin and hand finished…

I don't follow - you say the Potsdamer Palace cost €2500/sqm, while a standard office is €1500/sqm. And the higher cost/office comes mostly from the smaller offices in newer buildings? Does the traditional facade somehow prevent smaller offices?

Though I have to say, it would be refreshing to hear architects defend their work with "Yes it's ugly but it's cheap" instead of whatever claims of artistic vision we currently get.

> which the Neo-classicists thought was ugly and modern

According to polls, pretty much everyone dislikes modern architecture, not just members of traditionalist architectural schools.

Re: Fuck The Vessel

#118
post #117
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Are they? Yes, they can be.. providing you are comparing apples with apples. According to [0]. But that is not really satisfying without numbers is it? So lets take the first example linked in your reddit post. The Potsdamer Palace. It is the most interesting example as they went to some effort [1] to reconstruct the facade as closely to the original design as possible, including the brickwork skin and hand finished…

I don't follow - you say the Potsdamer Palace cost €2500/sqm, while a standard office is €1500/sqm. And the higher cost/office comes mostly from the smaller offices in newer buildings? Does the traditional facade somehow prevent smaller offices? Though I have to say, it would be refreshing to hear architects defend their work with "Yes it's ugly but it's cheap" instead of whatever claims of artistic vision we current…

>Does the traditional facade somehow prevent smaller offices?

Well, yes. Light, servicing, ventilation. A modern floor plate is up to 40m usable depth. A historic floor plate 8-10m usable depth, and only half of that with a window.

>Neo-classicists

Read some history from wikipedia..

>The term "Neoclassical" was not invented until the mid-19th century, and at the time the style was described by such terms as "the true style", "reformed" and "revival"; what was regarded as being revived varying considerably.

The point was, this is just about people, as they always did, preferring the historicity, the status, the symbols of earlier times (and lets be honest, wealth). It has always been the same argument. Which traditional style are you going to pick? the cave or the tree house?

Re: Fuck The Vessel

#119
post #72
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've noticed that a lot of the animus that the more-fortunate of us humans have against the less-fortunate is based in a very deeply-hidden, but very present understanding that it could have easily been you. Like, you have to distance yourself from unfortunate circumstances, lest you become victim to them. This is just a denial of the reality that no one is really given a choice about the circumstances of their lives…

Whatever point you were trying to make could perfectly well have been made without "some graduate student bourgeoisie cunt". Seriously, what does that add here? It was already perfectly unambiguous you find her and her perspective abhorrent. Such hateful vulgarity actually detracts from your argument, IMO; you come across as rageful, not rational. EDIT: Parent comment was edited to remove the quoted bit, and also sig…

Yeah, it was incredibly uncalled for on my part, terrible way to think.

Re: Fuck The Vessel

#120
post #118
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't follow - you say the Potsdamer Palace cost €2500/sqm, while a standard office is €1500/sqm. And the higher cost/office comes mostly from the smaller offices in newer buildings? Does the traditional facade somehow prevent smaller offices? Though I have to say, it would be refreshing to hear architects defend their work with "Yes it's ugly but it's cheap" instead of whatever claims of artistic vision we current…

>Does the traditional facade somehow prevent smaller offices? Well, yes. Light, servicing, ventilation. A modern floor plate is up to 40m usable depth. A historic floor plate 8-10m usable depth, and only half of that with a window. >Neo-classicists Read some history from wikipedia.. >The term "Neoclassical" was not invented until the mid-19th century, and at the time the style was described by such terms as "the true…

> A modern floor plate is up to 40m usable depth. A historic floor plate 8-10m usable depth, and only half of that with a window.

Sorry, you'll have to explain more. Why is a historic floor plate smaller? And why does a window on the facade make it smaller still? How does the facade affect the floor plate?

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