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Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

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Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#91

Post by zaroth »

gamblor956 wrote: post #79
zaroth wrote: post #74

I get that it’s fun to beat up on Tesla. We love nothing more than the little guy winning and the winning guy brought low. Tis the great cycle of life. However, Tesla is the largest battery manufacturer in the world, and manufactures their batteries at significantly lower cost, higher performance, tighter tolerances, and with greater automation than anyone else in the world. It’s underestimating the difficulty of the…

Tesla is the largest battery manufacturer in the world, and manufactures their batteries at significantly lower cost, higher performance, tighter tolerances, and with greater automation than anyone else in the world. Panasonic manufactures the battery cells for Tesla and most of the market. Tesla assembles the cells into batteries. It would be accurate to say that Tesla is the largest manufacturer of car batteries, b…

The Model 3 cells are custom 2170 li-ion cells co-developed with Tesla and manufactured by Panasonic at Gigafactory 1.

Tesla Gigafactory 1, which started in 2013, has already grown into the biggest battery factory in the world with an annual production capacity of over 20 GWh. [1]

Actually they have exceeded 20 GWh currently and are pushing towards 35 GWh. [2]

Panasonic is a 25% stakeholder in Gigafactory 1. The fact that you think Tesla merely assembles packs, is because most of what they are doing to hit $100/kWh is trade secret.

Their packs are cheaper, lighter, denser. They will be cobalt free. And that’s driven by Tesla IP not just Panasonic. [3]

As far as margins, the idea that you could ship a 50kWh electric car for $35,000 was pure and utter lunacy 10 years ago.

There literally isn’t enough battery production in the world to produce a million EVs a year, let alone 10 million. You are comparing apples to oranges.

[1] - https://www.google.com/amp/s/electrek.co/2018/09/26/panasoni...

[2] - https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/g...

[3] - https://electrek.co/2018/11/13/tesla-battery-cells-improved/

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#92

Post by hector_vasquez »

gamblor956 wrote: post #86
DeonPenny wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla built a car company in a few years and created 3 cars in less than 10 years that rival giants it's the very opposite of a shit shows it's the most valuable thing they own.

And if Tesla had actually managed to get the logistics part down (i.e,. the IP at stake in these lawsuits), nobody would be regarding Tesla as a shit show today. Tesla's car designs and brand IP are currently very valuable. They're also not the subject of these lawsuits...

People claiming that Tesla logistics is a "shit show" does not mean that Tesla failed to build a valuable logistics system. Check your logic there. Your saying something doesn't make it true. It would be far more plausible to claim that the repeated theft of Tesla logistics IP implies Tesla has valuable logistics IP.

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#93

Post by natch »

gamblor956 wrote: post #85
3pt14159 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may be correct, but your argument doesn't yet convince me. Rephrased your argument is: 1. Tesla has to show that Zoox is using or used the information. 2. The above point only likely if Tesla's logistics processes are valuable. 3. We know know that they are not valuable because Tesla has had trouble keeping its supply chain optimized. I take the most amount of issue with #3, but also with #2. That they have troub…

Actually, now that I've been able to read the lawsuit, #2 and #3 are irrelevant. Zoox isn't even to the point of making a product yet--its still in the prototyping stage, and Tesla accused it of stealing logistics IP related to supply chain management and storage. So Tesla can't show them of #1 (using the IP) because Zoox simply isn't in the position of being able to use the IP.

Even in the planning and fund raising stages (for example) this kind of thing can be extremely valuable though. Just narrowing options and identifying strategies in advance without paying for research is huge. Your strict idea of what of “using” the IP means is pretty strained.

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#94

Post by outwebbyyou »

gamblor956 wrote: post #4

Tesla is suing former employees for stealing its logistics (warehousing, inventory control, etc.) trade secrets. Tesla has to show that Zoox is using the information the employees allegedly stole. In a nutshell, Tesla would have to show similarities between its logistics processes and Zoox's. ( https://www.fenwick.com/FenwickDocuments/Trade_Secrets_Prote... for a good summary) But given the shitshow that is Tesla's l…

> Tesla alleges former employee Guangzhi Cao, who worked on the company’s Autopilot driver assistance feature, stole source code before abruptly quitting in January and taking a job XPeng. Tesla refers to the company as XMotors in its complaint.

Why companies are still using engineers from China to work on trade secrets is beyond me. Even if they start off clean, they can be easily persuaded to steal by the Chinese companies or government.

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#95

Post by zaroth »

shereadsthenews wrote: post #90
zaroth wrote: post #74

I get that it’s fun to beat up on Tesla. We love nothing more than the little guy winning and the winning guy brought low. Tis the great cycle of life. However, Tesla is the largest battery manufacturer in the world, and manufactures their batteries at significantly lower cost, higher performance, tighter tolerances, and with greater automation than anyone else in the world. It’s underestimating the difficulty of the…

Tesla is not anywhere near the largest battery maker and their product is made to the exact same specifications as off-the-shelf Panasonic batteries, by Panasonic, in a Panasonic factory with a big Tesla sign on it. But what I'd love to know is how you came to believe any of that stuff you wrote.

The batteries in the Model 3 are not in fact off-the-shelf Panasonic batteries.

Tesla has the largest single battery factory, but they seem to be second behind CATL in the latest annualized production rates.

CATL shipped 7.3GWh in 2018-Q2, I can’t find Q3 numbers but I did find one site saying “monthly installed battery capacity with 1.47GWh, 2.45GWh, 2.49GWh and 3.4GWh produced respectively from August to November in 2018.” But these are not just EV batteries.

For EV batteries specifically, Tesla produces more than 50% of global supply.

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#96

Post by dd36 »

mdorazio wrote: post #80
zaroth wrote: post #74

I get that it’s fun to beat up on Tesla. We love nothing more than the little guy winning and the winning guy brought low. Tis the great cycle of life. However, Tesla is the largest battery manufacturer in the world, and manufactures their batteries at significantly lower cost, higher performance, tighter tolerances, and with greater automation than anyone else in the world. It’s underestimating the difficulty of the…

Nothing you've said actually runs counter to the parent comment, though. Tesla can simultaneously be awful at logistics and still be the largest battery pack manufacturer because no one else really wanted to get into that game until recently. Also, the gross margins on the Model 3 have little to do with supply chain. They cut a lot of corners on build quality, interior fit and finish, etc. to get to that margin and t…

They cut corners but have the highest safety rating ever and the highest customer satisfaction?

Is it reasonable to call something a cut corner when the end result is success by nearly every metric? Maybe that corner needn't exist? Scaling issues are unavoidable. So much nitpicking.

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#97

Post by ABCLAW »

dragonwriter wrote: post #87
gamblor956 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So sure, their logistics are a mess in general, but if they had a great idea for, I dunno, shipping-based rolling warehouse allocation or something, and Zoox got caught doing the same thing, it's game over. But that's not the world we live in. Tesla posted their lawsuit online, and the details are available all over. From the Verge, on the Zoox lawsuit: The employees allegedly made off with information related to wha…

> It's the same issue that Waymo ran into with Uber: whatever the former employee may have done, the new employer isn't liable for anything if they don't actually use that misappropriated information. Didn't the Waymo-Uber suit end up with Uber settling by paying a quarter billion dollars (in equity, but still)? Doesn't seem like Waymo ran into any fatal liability barriers.

>Didn't the Waymo-Uber suit end up with Uber settling by paying a quarter billion dollars

Yep. They did.

In fairness, though, Waymo did run into difficulties during the litigation in respect of tying the misappropriated documentation to Uber itself, though.

I don't think the difficulty was fatal, but I don't think either side was looking forward to a long and protracted discovery fight to prove the point while Cruise et al. were sitting on the sidelines sniping secrets.

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#98

Post by dd36 »

gamblor956 wrote: post #64
rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strange legal choices wrt to the SEC? Just wait for the judge decision: the SEC is in a clear overreach here, as all the tweets they cited in their filing are non material. They even misquoted the tweet to say "500K" instead of " about 500K" and anyone can add up the previsouly published numbers to conclude the company should reach a runrate of 500K at the end of the year (Musk tweeted nothing new, it was already dis…

The judge will definitely not rule that the SEC is in "clear overreach" since the 500k tweet is only one of the many tweets they cite in their filing as evidence that Elon has violated his settlement agreement. The 500k tweet was just the final straw. Also, with respect to the "previously published numbers," Tesla provided a range of 360k to 500k. A large range, indicating significant uncertainty. Musk's tweet narrow…

Doubtful. The SEC tried to pad its complaint in its reply. That's not an indication of strength.

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#99

Post by natch »

throwaway5752 wrote: post #29
sigmar wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If anything, Zoox used the information allegedly taken from Tesla as an example of what not to do logistically, and trade secrets law doesn't let you sue for that. Any other lawyer want to sound off on if this is right? Because it doesn't seem right. If I'm using stolen trade secrets to decide what not to do, I'm still making very good use of that information. Edit: added "other" to first sentence since original com…

According to gamblor956's profile, they are a lawyer.

There are clearly using that title for some reason. Whether they are qualified as a lawyer with expertise in the matters at hand, is another question.

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#100

Post by Fricken »

vabmit wrote: post #69

This tactic has been used against companies friends of mine have started. I've only seen it used by large 20+ year old 1970s/1980s publicly traded companies, never someone like Tesla. The way it works is basically that you track where your ex-employees go after they leave. If they go to a competitor/disruptor start-up with out deep pockets, sue that competitor over trade secrets. It's nearly impossible to disprove in…

Tesla has done this previously a meritless trade secrets theft case against Henry Fisker after he left the company, and later against Aurora innovation, a company cofounded by Sterling Anderson, a former director of Autopilot.
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