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Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

reuters.com

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Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#81

Post by HeWhoLurksLate »

vabmit wrote: post #69

This tactic has been used against companies friends of mine have started. I've only seen it used by large 20+ year old 1970s/1980s publicly traded companies, never someone like Tesla. The way it works is basically that you track where your ex-employees go after they leave. If they go to a competitor/disruptor start-up with out deep pockets, sue that competitor over trade secrets. It's nearly impossible to disprove in…

If you are a relatively new company, getting on stable ground, would you appreciate it if someone stole your IP and then proceeded to copy you, and get a huge boost past the part that nearly bankrupted you and left you homeless? That's not very fair to me, either.

Full disclosure: I do agree that there is such a thing as going overboard, but when your top engineers get recruited to a new company doing the same exact thing and take their laptop with them, that's a bit much. Especially when they load up all their drives with documentation before they leave.

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#82

Post by gamblor956 »

zaroth wrote: post #77
AsyncAwait wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I get that it’s fun to beat up on Tesla. There are many reasons to legitimately shit on Tesla including their worker treatment, statements made by their CEO etc.

The point isn’t that you can prove Tesla isn’t perfect. That goes without saying. The assertion was they are so far from perfect that in fact their IP isn’t even defensible in a court of law. So please don’t reply with more quips about how Tesla isn’t perfect. Why does their CEO mouthing off on Twitter, or attacking disgruntled employees, or dubious onsite health care, or pie-in-the-sky volume estimates, or market ma…

I'm not saying that Tesla has no valuable IP (it's brand IP is quite valuable).

I am saying that its logistics IP is worth nothing to another company, and right now its logistics IP isn't worth much to Tesla either. Even Musk acknowledges that they're in "logistics hell" right now...

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#83

Post by HeWhoLurksLate »

asdff wrote: post #54
ddoolin wrote: post #3

This might be unpopular here, but I kind of wish this and other similar systems were more open source, or even just shared between companies. If companies are going to be putting a system out there on the streets anyway, and Tesla's is comparatively more quality and perhaps thus safer (I'm not making a claim, just positing a hypothetical), then it would only be to everyone's benefit if every company didn't have to (o…

The minute anyone sells a self driving car it will be completely dismantled and quickly reverse engineered by every auto manufacturer, like they already do for every product their competitors put out. The reverse engineering even happens before your product is out. Go to any auto show and you will find employees of other companies taking measurements or scanning paint pigments of concept cars that will never even hit…

Aaand? That doesn't make it legal to take internal data about how the car itself was made. Reverse engineering is a complicated process, and one that is costly, and thus makes it risky to do- especially when we're talking ginormous batteries one errant screwdriver away from discharging- and is why it's generally acceptable to reverse a vehicle and not acceptable to take internal documents.

For example: knowing that someone machined the 6061 aluminum in the engine is completely different from knowing that it took twelve tries and a five-axis mill to do so, and that the entire chassis takes twelve hours to assemble, twenty people, and fifty-three robots.

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#84

Post by cma »

penny45 wrote: post #38

I have a unpopular opinion here but I actually think Tesla is a tech company and has valuable information worth stealing.

I know software is a different area.. but such valuable secrets they started building cars in an open tent where the whole line could be videoed from the street...

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#85

Post by gamblor956 »

3pt14159 wrote: post #33
gamblor956 wrote: post #4

Tesla is suing former employees for stealing its logistics (warehousing, inventory control, etc.) trade secrets. Tesla has to show that Zoox is using the information the employees allegedly stole. In a nutshell, Tesla would have to show similarities between its logistics processes and Zoox's. ( https://www.fenwick.com/FenwickDocuments/Trade_Secrets_Prote... for a good summary) But given the shitshow that is Tesla's l…

You may be correct, but your argument doesn't yet convince me. Rephrased your argument is: 1. Tesla has to show that Zoox is using or used the information. 2. The above point only likely if Tesla's logistics processes are valuable. 3. We know know that they are not valuable because Tesla has had trouble keeping its supply chain optimized. I take the most amount of issue with #3, but also with #2. That they have troub…

Actually, now that I've been able to read the lawsuit, #2 and #3 are irrelevant.

Zoox isn't even to the point of making a product yet--its still in the prototyping stage, and Tesla accused it of stealing logistics IP related to supply chain management and storage. So Tesla can't show them of #1 (using the IP) because Zoox simply isn't in the position of being able to use the IP.

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#86

Post by gamblor956 »

DeonPenny wrote: post #21
gamblor956 wrote: post #4

Tesla is suing former employees for stealing its logistics (warehousing, inventory control, etc.) trade secrets. Tesla has to show that Zoox is using the information the employees allegedly stole. In a nutshell, Tesla would have to show similarities between its logistics processes and Zoox's. ( https://www.fenwick.com/FenwickDocuments/Trade_Secrets_Prote... for a good summary) But given the shitshow that is Tesla's l…

Tesla built a car company in a few years and created 3 cars in less than 10 years that rival giants it's the very opposite of a shit shows it's the most valuable thing they own.

And if Tesla had actually managed to get the logistics part down (i.e,. the IP at stake in these lawsuits), nobody would be regarding Tesla as a shit show today.

Tesla's car designs and brand IP are currently very valuable. They're also not the subject of these lawsuits...

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#87

Post by dragonwriter »

gamblor956 wrote: post #73
ajross wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems, again, extraordinarily glib and unserious. You're asserting without evidence that Tesla had nothing of value in the documents stolen, but all they have to do to prevail is show that any of the trade secrets provided a competetive advantage. So sure, their logistics are a mess in general, but if they had a great idea for, I dunno, shipping-based rolling warehouse allocation or something, and Zoox got caugh…

So sure, their logistics are a mess in general, but if they had a great idea for, I dunno, shipping-based rolling warehouse allocation or something, and Zoox got caught doing the same thing, it's game over. But that's not the world we live in. Tesla posted their lawsuit online, and the details are available all over. From the Verge, on the Zoox lawsuit: The employees allegedly made off with information related to wha…

> It's the same issue that Waymo ran into with Uber: whatever the former employee may have done, the new employer isn't liable for anything if they don't actually use that misappropriated information.

Didn't the Waymo-Uber suit end up with Uber settling by paying a quarter billion dollars (in equity, but still)? Doesn't seem like Waymo ran into any fatal liability barriers.

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#88

Post by hector_vasquez »

gamblor956 wrote: post #82
zaroth wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point isn’t that you can prove Tesla isn’t perfect. That goes without saying. The assertion was they are so far from perfect that in fact their IP isn’t even defensible in a court of law. So please don’t reply with more quips about how Tesla isn’t perfect. Why does their CEO mouthing off on Twitter, or attacking disgruntled employees, or dubious onsite health care, or pie-in-the-sky volume estimates, or market ma…

I'm not saying that Tesla has no valuable IP (it's brand IP is quite valuable). I am saying that its logistics IP is worth nothing to another company, and right now its logistics IP isn't worth much to Tesla either. Even Musk acknowledges that they're in "logistics hell" right now...

Seems quite odd that people keep trying to steal worthless property.

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#89

Post by [deleted] »

gamblor956 wrote: post #73
ajross wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems, again, extraordinarily glib and unserious. You're asserting without evidence that Tesla had nothing of value in the documents stolen, but all they have to do to prevail is show that any of the trade secrets provided a competetive advantage. So sure, their logistics are a mess in general, but if they had a great idea for, I dunno, shipping-based rolling warehouse allocation or something, and Zoox got caugh…

So sure, their logistics are a mess in general, but if they had a great idea for, I dunno, shipping-based rolling warehouse allocation or something, and Zoox got caught doing the same thing, it's game over. But that's not the world we live in. Tesla posted their lawsuit online, and the details are available all over. From the Verge, on the Zoox lawsuit: The employees allegedly made off with information related to wha…

[deleted]

Re: Tesla sues former employees for allegedly stealing data, Autopilot source code

#90

Post by shereadsthenews »

zaroth wrote: post #74

I get that it’s fun to beat up on Tesla. We love nothing more than the little guy winning and the winning guy brought low. Tis the great cycle of life. However, Tesla is the largest battery manufacturer in the world, and manufactures their batteries at significantly lower cost, higher performance, tighter tolerances, and with greater automation than anyone else in the world. It’s underestimating the difficulty of the…

Tesla is not anywhere near the largest battery maker and their product is made to the exact same specifications as off-the-shelf Panasonic batteries, by Panasonic, in a Panasonic factory with a big Tesla sign on it. But what I'd love to know is how you came to believe any of that stuff you wrote.
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