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UK Parliament petitions site crashes under traffic for petition to cancel Brexit

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Re: UK Parliament petitions site crashes under traffic for petition to cancel Brexit

#171

Post by gideonparanoid »

j16sdiz wrote: post #128
blinky1456 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Entries are absolutely validated, you cannot just use proxies and automate hundreds of thousands of signings. The people behind the petition website are not idiots.

Do you meant the petition website have access to a full list of British citizen personal information? This can be worrying.

The electoral register is relatively open. You can view it in most public libraries, town hall etc. [0]. You can even buy it in some cases [1].

[0] https://www.gov.uk/electoral-register/view-electoral-registe... [1] https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_fil...

Re: UK Parliament petitions site crashes under traffic for petition to cancel Brexit

#172

Post by arethuza »

slavoingilizov wrote: post #95
jon889 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really understand how Paris has real protests almost every weekend, yet we're leaving the EU and we've just had a few marches. Marches do nothing, they're preplanned to cause minimal disruption, just make the people in them feel like they're doing something so that it doesn't go further than that. The march on Saturday needs to at least move off the preplanned route and actually cause some inconvenience.

Historically, the citizens of the UK and former British Empire have never managed to pull off a revolution. I don't know if complacency is ingrained in the culture (plenty of evidence for the opposite), but the French started beheading kings when they were not happy. The UK still supports a figurehead monarch. No evidence of correlation or causation, but just saying.

What about the English Civil war which ended up with Charles I being executed?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_I_of_England

Also the later, and peaceful, Glorious Revolution?

Re: UK Parliament petitions site crashes under traffic for petition to cancel Brexit

#173

Post by pjc50 »

j16sdiz wrote: post #128
blinky1456 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Entries are absolutely validated, you cannot just use proxies and automate hundreds of thousands of signings. The people behind the petition website are not idiots.

Do you meant the petition website have access to a full list of British citizen personal information? This can be worrying.

The "electoral roll" is hardly secret.

Re: UK Parliament petitions site crashes under traffic for petition to cancel Brexit

#174

Post by warbucks »

misnome wrote: post #140
frutiger wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But it’s not as though we’ve been listened to in any way. I get the sentiment (as a pro-Euro Brit), but surely the original referendum counts as being listened to in some way?

> surely the original referendum counts as being listened to in some way? Even ignoring all the illegality and fraud about the referendum, and ignoring that because it was advisory large portions of british citizens living abroad were prevented from having a say, and ignoring the arguments about 16-year-olds who it would be directly affecting because of the time lags, and ignoring the arguments around the fact that t…

Why such an important decision wasn't required to be 60/40 to pass completely baffles me. Almost as much as how the referendum is treated as some iron-clad decision while passing at 51/49.

Re: UK Parliament petitions site crashes under traffic for petition to cancel Brexit

#175

Post by osrec »

microcolonel wrote: post #169
osrec wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you may be surprised by the outcome. The real question is, do the Tory party want to commit political suicide by administering a no deal brexit, and risk never getting re-elected until the subsequent turmoil subsides? I think not. Farage and the rest are no where to be seen (he still collects his salary from the EU apparently though!). The upshot of all this mess will probably be as unlikely as the referendum…

> commit political suicide by administering a no deal Brexit I don't know how this would be political suicide, it is currently the most popular option in polling, and it's not considered to have any greater economic costs than the other options (including reversing the referendum decision entirely!).

How can the potential breakup of the UK, increased economic uncertainty, increased political uncertainty, and a complete lack of plan yield any good outcomes for the Tories in the mid-to-long term? I mean, it may be popular, short term, but you have to remember that the people screaming their lungs out in favour of Brexit are probably the least informed about its potential consequences. And they are probably also the most affected by the potential consequences - they will turn as soon as the going gets tough.

Re: UK Parliament petitions site crashes under traffic for petition to cancel Brexit

#176

Post by pjc50 »

huffmsa wrote: post #165
minikites wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm only pointing out that the two sides were not competing fairly, e.g. the Leave side broke the law: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/07/corrupt-vot...

Then what's the legal recourse / precedent for handling illegal votes? If it's not codified, then it sounds like a failure of the government structure and charter

Normally the result would be overturned. See Lutfur Rahman: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-45452342

Apparently the Brexit referendum was "advisory" so this doesn't count.

> sounds like a failure of the government structure and charter

Everything is a failure of the government structure and charter at the moment, pal. We've had half a dozen constitutional crises this year and the Speaker is digging up precendent from 1604.

Re: UK Parliament petitions site crashes under traffic for petition to cancel Brexit

#177

Post by ahje »

lm28469 wrote: post #76
jonplackett wrote: post #21

Petitions for Brexit are completely pointless. We already know half the country wants to leave and half wants to stay, so unless that petition has more than 33 million signatures then it doesn't prove much does it. (FYI: I voted remain and think Brexit is completely dumb, but it doesn't change how pointless petitions are for subjects where it's well established what people's opinions are)

> We already know half the country wants to leave and half wants to stay I get it's a democracy yada yada, but how are people expected to make such a decision ? It has so many consequences on short and long term, even experts in the field struggle(d) to predict. We're not talking about the color of a national football team jersey or a 1% increase on alcohol tax here. The vote wasn't about staying or leaving EU, it wa…

Alas, history tells us that the people with "rational" opinions are no better to rule than the ones with "irrational" ones. At least not in the long run.

As a fellow EU-citizen I am absolutely horrified by the chaos currently unfolding in the UK, but dismissing the entire voting process while referring to "democracy yada yada" is far scarier than the outcome of a democratic election will ever be.

Re: UK Parliament petitions site crashes under traffic for petition to cancel Brexit

#178

Post by matthewmacleod »

tomp wrote: post #139
matthewmacleod wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Building a deliverable, realistic consensus approach with cross-party support, reflecting the relatively close outcome of the initial referendum and the diversity of opinion within the "leave" movement.

But that's my question, what's a "realistic consensus"? Mind you, consensus within the UK isn't enough, you need consensus with the EU as well - and I don't think anything better than the current deal is even possible.

But that's my question, what's a "realistic consensus"?

It's really the prime minister's job to build this based on working cross-party, but an obvious example might be a relatively close Norway-style relationship, which would be much more likely to receive opposition support.

I don't think anything better than the current deal is even possible

This is again just absolutely false.

Re: UK Parliament petitions site crashes under traffic for petition to cancel Brexit

#179

Post by coldtea »

isostatic wrote: post #110
coldtea wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taken literally it is indeed false. But in democracies the percentages who want this or that are counted through voting. So technically, it is correct.

You ask 66 people today, About 16 will have voted to leave, 16 to remain, 11 who didn't vote but could have, and 23 didn't get to vote because they were too young or aren't British citizens (even if they've lived here for 20 years and have British kids) (based on 1 million births and deaths a year, with about 2:1 ratio of people dying voting leave (in line with surveys that the older you were the more likely you were…

>and 23 didn't get to vote because they were too young or aren't British citizens

Those are also not meant to vote, and rightly so. If you aren't a citizen (or aren't yet), you shouldn't decide of the country's matters. And if you're not an adult, you are considered not mature enough to have an opinion. That's part for the course in every democracy.

In a democracy, "X of the the country wants Y" = "X of people qualified to vote && who voted, want Y".

Even in the suffrage and civil rights era, nobody seriously complained that this doesn't include 10 year olds or non-citizens of a country.

>The problem is that only the views of the 24% that voted to leave, and arguably the 41% that voted leave or didn't vote, seem to matter.

That's not a problem, that's how democracy works. Want your opinion to matter? 1) Become an adult (e.g. just wait), 2) Become a citizen (if you're a foreigner) 3) DO vote (don't stay at home). Else the others who are will determine the result.

The real problem is the hypocrisy. In the sense that all of the above wouldn't be considered a problem if the majority had voted to remain.

Re: UK Parliament petitions site crashes under traffic for petition to cancel Brexit

#180

Post by [deleted] »

_Codemonkeyism wrote: post #72
chrisseaton wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has any vote ever been won by a majority of the entire population, eligible to vote or not? If that’s the standard you’re after nothing would ever pass and no government would ever be formed. Seems an unreasonable bar to set, to me.

Sure the "50M didn't vote for Brexit" is BS as is the "but the 17M" with such a tiny margin of pro-Brexit votes. Implicitly agreeing to the "but the 17M" frame, the Remainers lost the public discussion.

[deleted]
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