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After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

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Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#71

Post by Scoundreller »

muzika wrote: post #66
jakeogh wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would any of that be relevant?

Increasingly, cities will be expected to plan roads in a way that would be simpler for autonomous vehicles to bavigate.

And humans.

If two lanes in the default path of highway driving (stay left to continue) are closed half the day, I’d expect some blinking sign overhead saying “two left lanes closed ahead, stay right”.

I guess DOT would have the records of people making the mistake to know if there’s enough value from implementing another signal for what you’ll have to do up ahead.

Dunno if Tesla reads signs or not (or used scanned signs to navigate), but seems like a useful thing for humans that could assist machines.

But maybe I’m just spoiled by my jurisdiction’s electronic signs that say this kind of thing.

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#72

Post by jononor »

bsaul wrote: post #16

I wonder how do unit tests work with NN (or if they're even a relevant concept at all). You could replay some testing video frames and make sure the objects are correctly identified, but i suppose that's already what training is about... If an issue like that resurface, does it mean that the original frames leading to the 2018 accident aren't part of the training (or at least frames from someone driving in this kind…

Unit tests are not sufficient for neural networks. Say the network takes 2D images of typical 224x224 pixels with 3 channels (RGB) of 8 bit values, this input space has 256^(224x244x3) = 3.5×10^362507 possibilities. Billions of years to test them all. This is before we consider stereo vision, 3D images and state over time. How to know which subset of these inputs are necessary to give reasonable coverage? Right now I don't think we have very good answers to these things. Of course one can always add a regression test (with some K mutations) when someone crashes. It is better than nothing, but hardly good assurance that something like this will never happen again.

The entire area of safety and quality assurance with neural networks is still in active research actively, from multiple angles. For some examples of how chaotic neural networks can be, look up 'adversarial examples'.

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#73

Post by throwaway789214 »

Crazy how people are blatantly ignoring that even on autopilot drivers need to be attentive and keep situational awareness at all times.

I can't remember that there was ever a case in which autopilot caused a situation that an attentive driver couldn't have recovered from. Yet it is blamed on the system when people ignore this requirement and end up in an accident.

Throw-away for obvious reasons...

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#74

Post by Scoundreller »

dymk wrote: post #41
Scoundreller wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the same things that confuse humans can confuse computers that are largely trained with human data.

Millions of drivers per year use roads like this in California and Washington. They’re not very confusing for a human driver who’s paying attention.

I’m from Toronto, so I never underestimate drivers’ ability to do stupid like drive into streetcar-only tunnels past the end of the ashphalt, despite ample signage. 26 times.

https://torontolife.com/city/queens-quay-streetcar-tunnel-dr...

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#75

Post by mikejb »

Tomte wrote: post #51

The comments are scary. People defending Tesla's misleading advertisement re: full self-driving hardware etc. Because clearly "having full self-driving hardware" only means the hardware is there, not that the car can actually self-drive. I bet those people find themselves misunderstood in pretty much every discussion with people outside their nerdy circle.

On the earnings call, Musk even claimed that the Navigate on Autopilot feature set is "full self-driving" [1]

[1] https://youtu.be/oB0sAGykWT8?t=2895

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#76

Post by lisper »

0815test wrote: post #70
lisper wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The AP can only kill you if you're distracted/asleep at the wheel and not paying attention. That's not true. There are many situations where the AP could make a sudden turn and kill you long before you had time to react even if you were paying attention. And in fact, the situation in the video seem to be not so far away from that.

Make a sudden turn? It's just lane following, so I really doubt that. And if your hands are on the wheel (as they should be) you'll very quickly become aware that the car is not staying in the lane as it's supposed to, and be in the best position to deliver the right input. Even looking at this video, the car didn't seem to "turn" suddenly and unexpectedly; if anything, it failed to physically take a turn even though…

> Make a sudden turn? It's just lane following

You're begging the question [1]. The autopilot has full control authority over the steering wheel, so if it fails, nothing constrains it from making a sudden turn. If it is "just lane following" then it hasn't failed (yet).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#77

Post by jstanley »

lambda_lover wrote: post #67
breakyerself wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Willing guinea pig here. I'm going to do my best not to die, but I'm excited about this tech and willing to deal with the drawbacks of being an early adopter.

It's great that you're willing to die for Tesla's profit, but you realize that autonomous vehicle-induced crashes affect everyone on the road? Even someone who doesn't consent to Tesla's TOS is still sharing the road with potentially dangerous software. Granted, individual drivers are awful enough that it probably doesn't make that huge a difference in danger. But would you still feel the way if a family member was k…

I don't think he said he's willing to die. He said he's willing to test it, and presumably he'll continue concentrating and will manually take over if the car does something dangerous.

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#78

Post by jstanley »

adrianN wrote: post #54
nathanaldensr wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unwilling? Don't buy a Tesla. Don't believe the hype. It's that simple. Granted, there is nothing stopping any ECU from killing you, but I'd trust a company like Honda way before Tesla.

Tesla crashes can injure people who don't drive a Tesla themselves.

So can Honda crashes.

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#79

Post by systemspeed »

With demand for self-driving vehicles as high as it is, yet with the lag in advancement of computer vision, I think it's about time for a serious discussion about smart roads. I realize this isn't entirely relevant, but I can't be the only one thinking that we're missing the forest for the trees by trying to solve a transportation problem while simultaneously solving a vision problem.

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#80

Post by Dumblydorr »

lambda_lover wrote: post #67
breakyerself wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Willing guinea pig here. I'm going to do my best not to die, but I'm excited about this tech and willing to deal with the drawbacks of being an early adopter.

It's great that you're willing to die for Tesla's profit, but you realize that autonomous vehicle-induced crashes affect everyone on the road? Even someone who doesn't consent to Tesla's TOS is still sharing the road with potentially dangerous software. Granted, individual drivers are awful enough that it probably doesn't make that huge a difference in danger. But would you still feel the way if a family member was k…

Everyone puts their lives in the hands of other machines daily, for instance brakes or automated elevators or medical devices; driving is an inherently dangerous activity. Computer or human won't change that. If we delay computers getting better than humans, we will just have status quo which is 30k or more road deaths yearly in the US.
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