Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

np.reddit.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 351 posts

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#61

Post by lisper »

0815test wrote: post #29
x38iq84n wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. I have never understood the cheering for OTA of something that can literally kill you. Were they limited to infotainment and the useless easter eggs I would not care, however AP OTA is downright scary, especially pushed by vendor instead of being initiated by an informed user.

The AP can only kill you if you're distracted/asleep at the wheel and not paying attention. You're always in charge of driving the car appropriately, the "AP" can only provide tentative assistance of a very rough sort. It will try to guess at the control inputs you might want to provide (which does make things a bit more comfortable in the best case) but the actual control always rests with the human driver.

> The AP can only kill you if you're distracted/asleep at the wheel and not paying attention.

That's not true. There are many situations where the AP could make a sudden turn and kill you long before you had time to react even if you were paying attention. And in fact, the situation in the video seem to be not so far away from that.

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#62

Post by [deleted] »

mslev wrote: post #36

Watching the video, '2019.5.15 - Try 2' is interesting. You can see the car moving normally, then it starts to follow the black crack in the road and moves to the right- at this moment, the white Nissan in front is blocking the white lines ahead where the lanes actually split. Does AP use other cars as reference points, or just the road? Ideally in this situation it would be both: "The line has disappeared, and there…

[deleted]

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#63

Post by qball »

0815test wrote: post #29
x38iq84n wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. I have never understood the cheering for OTA of something that can literally kill you. Were they limited to infotainment and the useless easter eggs I would not care, however AP OTA is downright scary, especially pushed by vendor instead of being initiated by an informed user.

The AP can only kill you if you're distracted/asleep at the wheel and not paying attention. You're always in charge of driving the car appropriately, the "AP" can only provide tentative assistance of a very rough sort. It will try to guess at the control inputs you might want to provide (which does make things a bit more comfortable in the best case) but the actual control always rests with the human driver.

> You're always in charge of driving the car appropriately, the "AP" can only provide tentative assistance of a very rough sort.

It can "tentatively assist" you in killing yourself and potentially others, but we already know that from the disaster in Mountain View, where this exact same thing happened.

The problem with behavior changes in autopilot is that the car needs to react the same way every time.

If you're going around a corner on a road which you've driven on for years without issue, and the car all of a sudden does something unexpected, the panic and over-correction reaction that everyone instinctively has tends to cause more accidents than just holding your desired course does.

It doesn't matter if it's a skid, or your Tesla trying to accelerate you into a wall at 70 miles an hour. If the car does something the driver is not expecting it to do for any reason (from fatally defective software to ice on the ground) the driver performs sub-optimally as a result.

And since this is Tesla we're talking about (who bakes in features like your car not starting before you upgrade its software, which is another "feature" about these cars that's going to get someone killed sooner or later), I'm willing to bet that the car doesn't warn you that this might occur. It just works fine for 6 months, then an update gets pushed, the car tries to put you into a wall, and you cause an accident because you're trying to stop the car from killing you and didn't check your blind spot before that.

That is a UI and UX failure of the highest magnitude, and it is completely unacceptable, no matter how well it otherwise tends to work.

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#64

Post by bdcravens »

mikestew wrote: post #47
warp_factor wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what I find so interesting with Tesla owner. They spend a fortune on a car, then they minimize every single issue they have with the car. My explanation for this is that for a lot of owners, the car is a way to be part of a hyped group more than being a utilitarian object (what a car should be).

Happens with a lot of stuff, certain American-made motorcycles, for instance. You're in the club now, and the only way to stay in the club is to carry the manufacturer's water. In no case are we to admit that we spent a bunch of money on something that does a poor job of fulfilling its advertised purpose.

Or more relevant to the HN audience, Apple.

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#65

Post by fh973 »

warp_factor wrote: post #26
bdcravens wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a $700 car I might consider crazy compromises, but $70k+? Absolutely not.

That's what I find so interesting with Tesla owner. They spend a fortune on a car, then they minimize every single issue they have with the car. My explanation for this is that for a lot of owners, the car is a way to be part of a hyped group more than being a utilitarian object (what a car should be).

In context of Apple this was often referred to as the Stockholm Syndrome.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#66

Post by muzika »

jakeogh wrote: post #28
Scoundreller wrote: post #20

That’s a very strange way to close a highway. Where are the blinkenlights? The words? The flashing arrows? The plastic jersey barriers? The buckets full of sand or water? The repainted lines directing you to the right? Can’t tell if this is temporary or long-term closure, but if it’s a multi month thing, I would expect more “Don’t you dare fork to the left” signalling. Not everyone is a local.

Why would any of that be relevant?

Increasingly, cities will be expected to plan roads in a way that would be simpler for autonomous vehicles to bavigate.

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#67

Post by lambda_lover »

breakyerself wrote: post #56
paul7986 wrote: post #22

Scary... software developers at these robotic cars and their mistakes/bugs aren’t just going to bring down a business application(lose money) but kill their customers and innocent drivers. Progress to where it’s safer is going to be a killer and we the drivers on the road are unwilling guinea pigs to billionaires’ dreams/goals.

Willing guinea pig here. I'm going to do my best not to die, but I'm excited about this tech and willing to deal with the drawbacks of being an early adopter.

It's great that you're willing to die for Tesla's profit, but you realize that autonomous vehicle-induced crashes affect everyone on the road? Even someone who doesn't consent to Tesla's TOS is still sharing the road with potentially dangerous software.

Granted, individual drivers are awful enough that it probably doesn't make that huge a difference in danger. But would you still feel the way if a family member was killed in an accident where their human-controlled car was rear-ended by a Tesla?

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#68

Post by v_lisivka »

kitsunesoba wrote: post #8
sschueller wrote: post #4

Eventually we need the NTSB to certify updates before they are pushed out over the air. Similar to what the FAA does. These OTA updates are not ok for large machinery and endagers not only the Tesla driver but all others on the road.

I agree, but is there a way that could happen without slowing the process to a crawl? Depending on what’s involved it could easily push the gap between updates from months to years.

Autopilot can automatically record all incidents and then upload them to Tesla, with obfuscation and by user permit, to improve autopilot software. Tight feedback loop is much better for AI, IMHO.

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#69

Post by mongol »

Tomte wrote: post #53
nathanaldensr wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unwilling? Don't buy a Tesla. Don't believe the hype. It's that simple. Granted, there is nothing stopping any ECU from killing you, but I'd trust a company like Honda way before Tesla.

I generally have zero interest in cars and don't follow the new models, but my impression from articles I've seen in the last years is that Volvo is actually a top contender for driver assistant systems (when you don't fool yourself into thinking you have an autopilot, but you really want sensible safety augmentation features). Is that impression accurate?

I have no idea. Volvo certainly has the culture to do something good out of it. But do they have the money and resources required? Today they are owned by Chinese Geely. I don't know what partnerships and capital they can work with to compete with the top contenders (who I assume have Silicon Valley capital behind them)

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#70

Post by 0815test »

lisper wrote: post #61
0815test wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The AP can only kill you if you're distracted/asleep at the wheel and not paying attention. You're always in charge of driving the car appropriately, the "AP" can only provide tentative assistance of a very rough sort. It will try to guess at the control inputs you might want to provide (which does make things a bit more comfortable in the best case) but the actual control always rests with the human driver.

> The AP can only kill you if you're distracted/asleep at the wheel and not paying attention. That's not true. There are many situations where the AP could make a sudden turn and kill you long before you had time to react even if you were paying attention. And in fact, the situation in the video seem to be not so far away from that.

Make a sudden turn? It's just lane following, so I really doubt that. And if your hands are on the wheel (as they should be) you'll very quickly become aware that the car is not staying in the lane as it's supposed to, and be in the best position to deliver the right input. Even looking at this video, the car didn't seem to "turn" suddenly and unexpectedly; if anything, it failed to physically take a turn even though it should have. Which is quite bad, but it's not startling to the point where a driver would be in trouble.
Post reply on HN