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Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

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Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#691

Post by geofft »

Buttons840 wrote: post #443
geofft wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a wide spectrum in "a union" just like in "management". I've had good management and bad management. There are good unions and bad unions. So, a priori, I don't have an expectation of whether "the union" - some arbitrarily picked union - will definitely help or hurt, any more than I have an expectation that arbitrary "management" will definitely help or hurt. But there are a few things: - Just like I evaluate…

> I've had good management and bad management. There are good unions and bad unions. One downside of this is it sounds like we get to roll the "good bureaucracy / bad bureaucracy" dice twice instead of once, if either roll comes up "bad" we're in trouble.

I don't think that's quite right: the idea is that a good union can insulate you from bad management. So you're using a different dice roll, but it's just one roll. (It is true that things are strictly worse under good management + a bad union than under good management + no union.)

Also, you usually have more influence in what your union does than what your management does. If I have to pick one of two dice to roll, I'll pick the one that's weighted in my favor, even if it sometimes comes up 1.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#692

Post by rexpop »

jdavis703 wrote: post #529
nerder92 wrote: post #509

As a EU citizen, it always surprise me how the popular retoric about unions is to associate it with lazyness. I think is just undermining of what union actually really are. I personally found this as a first step toward a perception shift about tech from which we can all benefit. Unions for instance can help fight this constant non extra paid "after-hours" working culture that force you to do all-nighters and all thi…

My sister worked at a charter school. Because of previous labor violations teachers were not allowed to show up before class started (they could only be there for the official class hours). They also were not allowed to stay late after class. My sister thought this was ridiculous, how was she supposed to setup her classroom and answer questions afterwards? Unfortunately her boss warned her that coming early and stayi…

This seems like a punishment inflicted by management, not a concession negotiated by the union.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#693

Post by czbond »

magissima wrote: post #161
czbond wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mostly libertarian here, but not aware of the full views of the party, so I looked it up. Apparently the 2016 election view states on unions as below which I don't see contradictory to unions. [did this for my own knowledge] "We support the right of private employers and employees to choose whether or not to bargain with each other through a labor union. Bargaining should be free of government interference, such as c…

So "abolish the NLRB" then.

That's their stance, yes, I'm personally not fully libertarian and think an NLRB is useful.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#694

Post by repolfx »

mcv wrote: post #671
yibg wrote: post #559

I'm not against unions in general or in principle, but some implementations are not great. I suspect like some folks here, my personal (negative) interactions with unions have turned me off of unions in general. I worked at an unionized shop when I first graduated and while I recognize some of the positives the union brought, there were also many downsides. Some examples: - Nepotism. We had an open position we couldn…

This does not sound like what (little, I admit) I know about unions. If the union is in charge of hiring, promotion and even the content of your work, it seems the union is effectively running the company. Dutch unions, as far as I know, negotiate employment contracts, employment standards and general working conditions with employers and the government. A lot of Dutch economic decisions are made in a committee with…

I'm not sure where you see the big difference. Dutch unions negotiate employment contracts, so it's easy to see how unions end up 'in charge of hiring, promotion and the content of your work'. Union power is ultimately rooted in the threat of striking to bring down the firm: there's no particular area of company policy such an organisation can't take control of.

Thus the powers unions obtain not only in the US but also for instance the UK, is entirely predictable - nothing stops them taking over the firm and unions are very frequently run by open communists who see it as a moral imperative to do so.

A good example is Unite in the UK, run by Len McCluskey:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Len_McCluskey

In a speech at the 2010 Durham Miners' Gala he said political developments in Cuba and Venezuela should be better known, and suggested the reason they were not was because of "the fear of the good example".

Not surprisingly when major unions are led by people who think Venezuela is a "good example", people learn that unions are bad news!

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#695

Post by repolfx »

ace_of_spades wrote: post #659
cambaceres wrote: post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution to problems of lablor mistreatment is to quit and get a job at another company that treats their employees better.

I would argue that today there are many oligopoly type situations where there is actually not too much choice to go around, especially if you are limited in terms of moving about. In these cases unionization or other types of collective action seem more appropriate. In general, I would argue for more diversity in company structures and better education about alternative organizational models (i.e., talk more openly a…

Kickstarter is a software firm based in New York. There's no shortage of firms hiring in New York. Kickstarter employees who are unhappy would be able to easily get jobs elsewhere.

However, observe that their goal is not to tackle abusive working practices but apparently to take over the firm and impose a "social justice" agenda on it:

enrich Kickstarter’s charter commitments to creativity, equity, and a positive impact on society

promote our collective values: inclusion and solidarity, transparency and accountability; a seat at the table,”

"equity" means equal outcomes e.g. 50% of all jobs being reserved for certain genders, races, etc. "Inclusion" is a codeword for the same thing.

Obviously the goal of forcibly converting Kickstarter into using identity politics based management isn't something they can achieve by just going to work elsewhere, as would be the case if they were being mistreated, because Kickstarter would just hire replacement employees.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#696

Post by repolfx »

bargl wrote: post #622
drb91 wrote: post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> fair workplaces What is this? EDIT: I don't mean to snark, it just seems like an inherently utopian ideal. Material concerns should dictate workspace conflict resolution. I certainly agree with your overall statement.

Yikes, I read my original post and I think yeah, you're right. I mean "more fair workplace". And fair being for both employee and employer. That's why I think competition would be important, as long as we can avoid a race to the bottom situation it might make unions more relevant.

I think what he/she was getting at is that "fair" isn't defined (by you).

My notion of a fair workplace is one where people's pay and rewards are entirely determined by their skill and merit, as judged by the management.

But lots of other people and especially unions define it totally differently: one where people's pay is determined by tenure, their union contract or their gender/race. That seems to be what these Kickstarter employees want.

Without a clear definition the word 'fair' can be interpreted as having polar opposite meanings.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#697

Post by mcv »

repolfx wrote: post #694
mcv wrote: post #671

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This does not sound like what (little, I admit) I know about unions. If the union is in charge of hiring, promotion and even the content of your work, it seems the union is effectively running the company. Dutch unions, as far as I know, negotiate employment contracts, employment standards and general working conditions with employers and the government. A lot of Dutch economic decisions are made in a committee with…

I'm not sure where you see the big difference. Dutch unions negotiate employment contracts, so it's easy to see how unions end up 'in charge of hiring, promotion and the content of your work'. Union power is ultimately rooted in the threat of striking to bring down the firm: there's no particular area of company policy such an organisation can't take control of. Thus the powers unions obtain not only in the US but al…

Unions have no interest in bringing own the firm. That would be bad for everybody. Unions have an interest in a healthy company. Their job is to represent their members to ensure employees are fairly compensated for fair work.

How this works out in practice is that many industries, including the government, have very well-defined rules about compensation, which jobs go with which salary, how healthy working conditions need to be, and under what circumstances you can be fired. People can absolutely be fired, just not arbitrarily on a whim.

So yeah, compared to the way some American unions and companies seem to work according to people in this discussion, the difference is very big.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#699

Post by crdoconnor »

ace_of_spades wrote: post #655
crdoconnor wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You haven't described a private union. You've described a co-op - a solution to an entirely different problem - how to deploy capital and labor in an egalitarian way. Unions exist to counter an existing adversarial and coercive economic relationship with counter-coercion. It's kind of like saying that instead of using tanks to fight a war you should use really persuasive arguments because then you don't have to use "…

Sure that was the whole point, to broaden the discussion beyond tending the symptoms and trying to get at the causes. An interesting idea could be to use a union or similar vehicle to start a co-op. Or start to strive for more democratic practices in companies. I actually like the comparisons to consulting companies in the sibling comments which seem to be an attempt at doing something like the outlined, however, wit…

Co-ops don't address the causes of coercive economic relations though. If they did they'd be much more common - Walmart and John Lewis both exist but they simply can't compete effectively in the same market. The only way to counter a Walmart is with a union - and a really aggressive one, too.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#700

Post by [deleted] »

msghacq wrote: post #48

"America’s political climate is changing; among other things, the 2016 presidential election brought up the issue of wealth inequality in this country and made people consider more closely the structural forces that define class here." What on earth does the 2016 election have to do with wealth inequality (or unions for that matter)? Inequality has been on the rise for decades and Clinton was also a member of the 1%.…

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