Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

theverge.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

651–660 of 724 posts

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#651

Post by solidasparagus »

StudentStuff wrote: post #130
the_bear wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll admit I'm not very knowledgeable about the logistics of unions, but I imagine there's some kind of up-front legal overhead. Like, maybe there are contracts between the union and the company, or within the union itself to determine how it's governed? I also get the impression there is some overhead in an ongoing basis in the form of extra meetings, more complicated negotiations, etc. All of those things seem like…

It seems your mis-understanding what a union is, the union will talk with management, forming an agreement as to what the pay scales are, how much paid leave is given at minimum, and escalation processes like grieving an issue when management does shitty things to the workers. The "overhead" you speak of is to pay someone to negotiate on the workers behalf, save up for a strike stipend, and provide worker training (u…

And now you have a fixed payscale that could easily make it harder to hire.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#652

Post by tylerl »

bargl wrote: post #223
edoo wrote: post #153

I've been in a union before. The work ethic wasn't good. They had seminars on how to work less and push back against complaints. They directed the members to engage in behavior that was best for the union while bad for the workers and the company. The union itself is a big business, what would they think of unionizing the union? Unions allow substandard work for equal pay. That tends to hold back the major opportunit…

I think this means we need to re-think how unions work. It should be used to create fair workplaces. My concern with the anti-union rhetoric in the USA is that we then turn to the government to protect workers. I think it's a lot better to have a union vs government as long as that union isn't protected from competition like they are today. If we can introduce competition into unions then they might better serve the…

Unions don't exist for the employees' benefit, they exist for the union's benefit. There's a big ol difference, and because of their protected status, unions get away with a lot of really horrifying behavior.

I've worked with several unions in different industries, and I can say pretty categorically that unions are brazenly unethical.

Unions may sometimes improve working conditions and pay, but only in the sense that the mafia reduces crime. You have to start out from a truly horrifying place for their bargain to be any better, and in taking that deal you're giving up on ever having a healthy environment.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#653

Post by cambaceres »

ace_of_spades wrote: post #401

To make this discussion maybe a little bit more solution oriented, what would be your solution to problems of labor mistreatment? Or do you suggest that nothing like that exists? I recently came across an interesting talk by Richard Wolff at Google [1] which suggests that a great solution would be the democratization of the work place in the form of worker coops. It’s actually a tried and true model that works well i…

The solution to problems of lablor mistreatment is to quit and get a job at another company that treats their employees better.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#654

Post by root_axis »

solidasparagus wrote: post #645
root_axis wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's pretty good advice for a flippant one-liner, but the overworking of engineers is pretty common across the industry.

Software engineering talent is in extremely high demand and the supply is limited. You can find a job that pays well and provides excellent work-life balance. A good engineer that enforces very strong work-life boundaries is a still better than no engineer and that's the decision many companies are faced with. But you won't be paid or professionally respected quite as much as those that put in the hours - which seems…

You can find a job that pays well and provides excellent work-life balance

Of course you can, so why doesn't everyone do it? Why is there so much written about work/life balance and burnout targeted at programmers (much of it featured on this very website)? Why is google lampooned for on-premises chefs and nap rooms? Why does every programmer in a 10 mile radius sneer when the phrase "unlimited vacation" is posted on the internet?

you won't be paid or professionally respected quite as much as those that put in the hours

Well that's certainly true, but putting in the extra hours doesn't necessarily equate to more pay or more respect, very often it equates to much more work and responsibility without much more pay.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#655

Post by ace_of_spades »

crdoconnor wrote: post #490
tomohawk wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Start a "consulting" business that provides really good pay and benefits to all of the workers. Be very selective about who you let in. You're now in the business of providing workers for companies that produce stuff. If they want access to your workers, they sign a contract with your company. If some workers don't like working for some particular company, transfer them to places where they like to work. You've now c…

You haven't described a private union. You've described a co-op - a solution to an entirely different problem - how to deploy capital and labor in an egalitarian way. Unions exist to counter an existing adversarial and coercive economic relationship with counter-coercion. It's kind of like saying that instead of using tanks to fight a war you should use really persuasive arguments because then you don't have to use "…

Sure that was the whole point, to broaden the discussion beyond tending the symptoms and trying to get at the causes.

An interesting idea could be to use a union or similar vehicle to start a co-op. Or start to strive for more democratic practices in companies. I actually like the comparisons to consulting companies in the sibling comments which seem to be an attempt at doing something like the outlined, however, with more of a traditional paint on top and probably more vulnerable to coercion in the long run.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#656

Post by ahelwer »

soheil wrote: post #630
ahelwer wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would help here if you clarified what you mean by "legitimate"; do you mean morally? The workers are responsible for creating almost all the value, since they do the work. Any money not going to the workers ought to be justified, rather than the negation. So to turn the question around: why are management & shareholders entitled to such a large share of what the workers produce? The answer is because management &…

> It would help here if you clarified what you mean by "legitimate"; do you mean morally? I mean is it rational. > The workers are responsible for creating almost all the value, since they do the work. Completely disagree. I believe most of the value of a company is created by the vision of its founding team and the execution of its leadership not the numerous workers along the hierarchy. I also think the 80-20 rule…

What you mean by "execution of its leadership" is... telling other people to do the actual work. There's a term for startups where leaders mill around but no actual work is done, it's called playing house: http://www.paulgraham.com/before.html

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#657

Post by dagw »

sokoloff wrote: post #501
dagw wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

employees who think their competition is against Kickstarter leadership rather than Indiegogo are at risk to seriously suboptimize Suboptimize what? By what metrics? And why are those the primary metrics I should be using to make extremely important life choices?

The overall success and value they are able to create jointly with their colleagues and take home a portion of for themselves and their family. I also find that to be an interesting, motivating, fun, and financially rewarding game to play. I support your right to use other metrics as you prefer to make your choices, of course.

take home a portion of for themselves and their family

I'm sure there are companies where the portion of value I get to take home is directly related to the value I and my colleagues created, but I've never worked at such a company. Perhaps that is the sort of thing unions could help with?

edit: That being said, I've worked at companies where the primary 'enemy' was either "the bosses at HQ" or rival departments and I agree that it is toxic and a terrible way to run a company. However when the company ends up in that state it is a failure of management and not of the workers.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#658

Post by ace_of_spades »

solidasparagus wrote: post #642
ace_of_spades wrote: post #401

To make this discussion maybe a little bit more solution oriented, what would be your solution to problems of labor mistreatment? Or do you suggest that nothing like that exists? I recently came across an interesting talk by Richard Wolff at Google [1] which suggests that a great solution would be the democratization of the work place in the form of worker coops. It’s actually a tried and true model that works well i…

There was an article that I can't find right now about European union practices. Create a union for an entire industry and then leverage union scale to push for government regulation that impacts the entire industry. I'm sure it would be imperfect, but you have to do a solution like that because if you don't, companies will see unions as a competitive disadvantage and prevent them. The biggest problem is that I and m…

I totally agree that there are two sides to this coin. On the one hand, you need to involve or support people who are negatively affected by changes (e.g., unions, co-ops, etc.) and, on the other hand, there needs to be effective regulation and decision making in the interest of the overall system of people (e.g., countries or the world).

It’s important to look at both of these sides when considering solutions, I guess I didn’t really do this in my comment. So thank you for this important insight!

To offer some additional thoughts on this, I can recommend the thought provink book Radical Markets by Eric Posner and Glen Weyl. They present quadratic voting (next to some other ideas) as one means of arriving at better regulatory outcomes. To me it’s not a complete or perfect solution but certainly interesting and maybe one piece of the puzzle :)

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#659

Post by ace_of_spades »

cambaceres wrote: post #653
ace_of_spades wrote: post #401

To make this discussion maybe a little bit more solution oriented, what would be your solution to problems of labor mistreatment? Or do you suggest that nothing like that exists? I recently came across an interesting talk by Richard Wolff at Google [1] which suggests that a great solution would be the democratization of the work place in the form of worker coops. It’s actually a tried and true model that works well i…

The solution to problems of lablor mistreatment is to quit and get a job at another company that treats their employees better.

I would argue that today there are many oligopoly type situations where there is actually not too much choice to go around, especially if you are limited in terms of moving about. In these cases unionization or other types of collective action seem more appropriate.

In general, I would argue for more diversity in company structures and better education about alternative organizational models (i.e., talk more openly about the pros and cons of all forms of organization - not only from a profit making but a societal perspective). It seems to me that there is a strong dogma of how things need to be done in start ups. But maybe I am wrong, I am still working at a German University so maybe I am misrepresenting the situation in your country.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#660

Post by ace_of_spades »

JamesBarney wrote: post #597
ace_of_spades wrote: post #401

To make this discussion maybe a little bit more solution oriented, what would be your solution to problems of labor mistreatment? Or do you suggest that nothing like that exists? I recently came across an interesting talk by Richard Wolff at Google [1] which suggests that a great solution would be the democratization of the work place in the form of worker coops. It’s actually a tried and true model that works well i…

For tech workers specifically a organization like the AMA that can fight for certain contractual safeguards against death marches, non competes, and abusive IP practices. For workers in general a UBI that decreases the supply of workers thus increasing their bargaining power.

Yeah, thank you for bringing up UBI! I think UBI is an interesting development and seems like a good part of the solution given our current situation. However, it adresses inequality mostly in terms of redistribution of resources and not really in terms of power.

For example, to finance a UBI large companies like would maybe be taxed more but that money would be evenly distributed across the company, thus, only marginally affecting Sergeys and Larrys position relative to their workers or society. They still remain in control, even though the population at large may have a little more wiggle room. Thus, UBI seems like a great way to make the status quo more tolerable but it wouldn’t really threaten accumulated power. That’s why basically everone in silicon valley is for it. Something like co-ops on the other hand bake in a lot more accountability and checks and balances into companies. This would also affect the distribution of power. But I wouldn’t say that this would be the obvious thing to push for or any kind of silver bullet. As I wrote in another comment, there are multiple sides to these problems (e.g., company and society level).

Thank you for engaging with this question, hope you find some value in my response!

Post reply on HN