Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing • Hacker News Board

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#481

Post by tomohawk » Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 10:22 PM UTC

ace_of_spades wrote: post #401

To make this discussion maybe a little bit more solution oriented, what would be your solution to problems of labor mistreatment? Or do you suggest that nothing like that exists? I recently came across an interesting talk by Richard Wolff at Google [1] which suggests that a great solution would be the democratization of the work place in the form of worker coops. It’s actually a tried and true model that works well i…

Start a "consulting" business that provides really good pay and benefits to all of the workers. Be very selective about who you let in.

You're now in the business of providing workers for companies that produce stuff. If they want access to your workers, they sign a contract with your company. If some workers don't like working for some particular company, transfer them to places where they like to work.

You've now created a private union that operates on a consensual basis rather than a coercive / adversarial basis.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#482

Post by EliRivers » Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 10:22 PM UTC

kevindqc wrote: post #101

ashelmire wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The 15 former employees of Lanetix comprised the firm’s entire non-management programming staff. Doesn't this kill a company?

They were planning to open (opened?) an offshore coding center in Eastern Europe.

"Thought Leadership" on the front page. I'm not surprised they wanted a union.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#483

Post by crankylinuxuser » Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 10:24 PM UTC

turc1656 wrote: post #402

umvi wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or it's just a symptom of the Shirky Principle: "Institutions will try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution." Even if the workplace is not adversarial, any union will try to preserve the conditions that necessitate its continued existence. No union ever said "Wow, this new CEO and management are super fair and reasonable. We are no longer necessary, let's dissolve and let them take the reigns."

Exactly this. First job I ever had was in the financial industry but was part of a larger conglomerate in the media business. As such, we were forced into the union that the writers for the media company were all a part of. Its unusual to have a union is a "professional services" type role. Speaking first hand, I can tell you the union did absolutely nothing for us except collect a portion of our wages. They didn't c…

> Speaking first hand, I can tell you the union did absolutely nothing for us except collect a portion of our wages.

I encounter this a lot in IT.

"YOU IT TYPES NEVER DO ANYTHING! YOU JUST SIT AT YOUR DESKS!"

"And your files, when you deleted them last week, what happened?"

"Well I put in my request and 20 minutes later.... Nevermind."

When we in IT do your jobs, we aren't noticed because we make technology work and smooth it out. When labor unions do the same thing, and make sure benefits and salaries and disputes are smooth and work on a pre-agreed upon process.

That may have been the case for you ; you didn't need union services because they already did the hard work before you showed up.

> We voted them out by a wide margin with 80% in favor of getting rid of them.

As was your right. Now tell me, on a union charter documents and federal procedures, there are ways to initiate an election to do this at non-standard times. If they are not adequately representing you, did you look into this?

> There really isn't a need in most cases to be unionized.

Basic economic theory shows why a force as powerful as a company is needed in dealing with them. And that counteracting force is a union. I, as an individual, have very little collective power. A company has a tremendous force.

> The primary focus of unions was always working conditions and fair wages.

And with the Labor Theory of Value so low for workers, we need unions now more than ever. And yes, that include for technical, intellectual, AND labor. One needs only look at how profits keep climbing per unit of labor, yet wages are stagnated for most workers.

> Working conditions are light years beyond what they once were so unions have focused basically myopically on always fighting for higher wages and benefits.

Please tell that to the current "Walmart"-equivalent employees working at Amazon peeing into milk jugs, because they can't get enough of a break to even go to the bathroom without the threat of firing.... But they don't need a union?!??

We technical staff have it loads better. We get free drinks/food in the breakroom, gameroom, and plenty more benefits. But I've also worked at the low paying jobs. You get: no insurance, no 401k, no benefits, no breaks, and work at $8/hr.

> I think people should be forced to negotiate for their own wages in most cases.

Seriously? "Forced"?

How about I get together with my colleagues and volitionally come to an agreement? NOPE Can't do that, we must be 'Forced' to negotiate individually...

> Only simpler, lower-wage type work where people may not have the personality, skillset, and ability to negotiate for themselves as to avoid taking advantage of people makes sense to me.

Arrogant much? "Oh those poor dumb people, they just don't know how good they have it!"

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#484

Post by jakelazaroff » Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 10:27 PM UTC

tomohawk wrote: post #479

drugme wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It always seems to degenerate into an "us vs them" sort of thing whenever I talk to them about where they work. Why would I ever work some place where things are so adversarial? Maybe because the employer... made things "adversarial" by creating unhealthy / untenable / inadequately compensated working conditions in the first place? You also end up with this 3rd party involved in everything, creating all kinds of "rul…

There are lots of reasons people may think unionizing is a good idea. Maybe they think the grass will be greener. Maybe they think it will get the man off their back. Maybe they think they're engaged in some sort of class warfare, and this is their duty. Maybe they are people who focus on what they don't have instead of what they do have. All I know from friends/family is all a union does is put another group of peop…

> All I know from friends/family is all a union does is put another group of people over you to tell you what to do… Their interests are not aligned with the business or even with yours.

Your employer is already a group of people over you who tell you what to do, whose interests are definitely not aligned with yours.

At least your union is ostensibly on your side; your employer is incentivized to wring as much out of you as they can, for as little as they can.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#485

Post by drilldrive » Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 10:28 PM UTC

bargl wrote: post #223

edoo wrote: post #153

I've been in a union before. The work ethic wasn't good. They had seminars on how to work less and push back against complaints. They directed the members to engage in behavior that was best for the union while bad for the workers and the company. The union itself is a big business, what would they think of unionizing the union? Unions allow substandard work for equal pay. That tends to hold back the major opportunit…

I think this means we need to re-think how unions work. It should be used to create fair workplaces. My concern with the anti-union rhetoric in the USA is that we then turn to the government to protect workers. I think it's a lot better to have a union vs government as long as that union isn't protected from competition like they are today. If we can introduce competition into unions then they might better serve the…

I honestly wonder (without knowing much of the history mind you) if the USA purposely made unions awful as to promote the mindset "I would rather not have a union" amongst the workers. For sure unions are terrible here, but it seems quite strange to have anti-competitive laws for unions when the USA is near-built on capitalism and the free market.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#486

Post by TheLuddite » Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 10:30 PM UTC

tomohawk wrote: post #481

ace_of_spades wrote: post #401

To make this discussion maybe a little bit more solution oriented, what would be your solution to problems of labor mistreatment? Or do you suggest that nothing like that exists? I recently came across an interesting talk by Richard Wolff at Google [1] which suggests that a great solution would be the democratization of the work place in the form of worker coops. It’s actually a tried and true model that works well i…

Start a "consulting" business that provides really good pay and benefits to all of the workers. Be very selective about who you let in. You're now in the business of providing workers for companies that produce stuff. If they want access to your workers, they sign a contract with your company. If some workers don't like working for some particular company, transfer them to places where they like to work. You've now c…

Wasn't this the way the Guilds were operating in the Medieval era?

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#487

Post by SimonPStevens » Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 10:30 PM UTC

criddell wrote: post #480

jononor wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Norway, each employee freely chooses their union. It is common in some industries that people belong to several different unions, and that some are not part of union. And usually they are based on particular profession, like engineering or economics. Unions then have more a passive role, offering services like free legal representation, better insurance deals, and training. Only some areas like teachers seem to ha…

Why does there have to be standard working terms? In the US professional baseball, hockey, and football have player unions and things like salary are negotiated per person.

They aren't standard working terms because of the unions. They are standard working terms because all teachers (who work in state schools at least) are employed by the local education authorities, who in turn set their working terms and salaries based on the government's department for education. So for teachers there is no individual salary negotiation, it's all decided centrally by the government and you either take it, or move to the private schools of which there are a lot less. (This is UK for me, but based on what op said, I think it's similar)

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#488

Post by bendbro » Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 10:31 PM UTC

root_axis wrote: post #460

bendbro wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience has been that most people work a lot less and get paid a lot less. Some obviously work more, but in general I’d say programming is a job where you spend most of your time working and little of your time idle. Many entry level jobs have workers spending significant time doing nothing. Salaries and work expectations are built around that. I’d agree it is a privilege to be able to hold a job that works you…

> I’d say programming is a job where you spend most of your time working and little of your time idle I have to vehemently disagree with this. I have observed that most programmers work something like 3-6 hours a day and the rest of that time is spent browsing reddit/hn or playing ping-pong or some other distraction. Also, every single place I've worked that pays engineers well also has a culture where engineers take…

I was thinking less along the lines of service industry, and more along the lines of white collar office work. Most of my friends in these roles “work” long hours but actually change very little. This is mirrored by some surveys and reporting I have read about regarding “the rise of bullshit jobs.”

One out of the four software companies I have worked at definitely falls into what you have mentioned, so I suspect my view is colored by the others I have worked at, one of which is renowned for “overworking” their programmers.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#489

Post by bluntfang » Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 10:41 PM UTC

tomohawk wrote: post #481

ace_of_spades wrote: post #401

To make this discussion maybe a little bit more solution oriented, what would be your solution to problems of labor mistreatment? Or do you suggest that nothing like that exists? I recently came across an interesting talk by Richard Wolff at Google [1] which suggests that a great solution would be the democratization of the work place in the form of worker coops. It’s actually a tried and true model that works well i…

Start a "consulting" business that provides really good pay and benefits to all of the workers. Be very selective about who you let in. You're now in the business of providing workers for companies that produce stuff. If they want access to your workers, they sign a contract with your company. If some workers don't like working for some particular company, transfer them to places where they like to work. You've now c…

Some of my peers have thrown around the idea of team hires. Interviewing as a team and working as a team. The team is hired and quits together and is generally a collective that works within itself.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#490

Post by crdoconnor » Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 10:43 PM UTC

tomohawk wrote: post #481

ace_of_spades wrote: post #401

To make this discussion maybe a little bit more solution oriented, what would be your solution to problems of labor mistreatment? Or do you suggest that nothing like that exists? I recently came across an interesting talk by Richard Wolff at Google [1] which suggests that a great solution would be the democratization of the work place in the form of worker coops. It’s actually a tried and true model that works well i…

Start a "consulting" business that provides really good pay and benefits to all of the workers. Be very selective about who you let in. You're now in the business of providing workers for companies that produce stuff. If they want access to your workers, they sign a contract with your company. If some workers don't like working for some particular company, transfer them to places where they like to work. You've now c…

You haven't described a private union. You've described a co-op - a solution to an entirely different problem - how to deploy capital and labor in an egalitarian way.

Unions exist to counter an existing adversarial and coercive economic relationship with counter-coercion.

It's kind of like saying that instead of using tanks to fight a war you should use really persuasive arguments because then you don't have to use "coercion".