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Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

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Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#451

Post by adamrezich »

anth_anm wrote: post #442
adamrezich wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this hyperbolic sarcasm. Minimum wage exists, labor laws exist. Not paying mandatory union dues wouldn't result in your wages being reduced that low, or being forced to work that many hours a week. This doesn't make any sense or support the point you're presumably trying to make whatsoever.

> Minimum wage exists, labor laws exist. Thanks to unions.

The union my friend was forced to be a member of, in particular? And if he didn't pay his union dues, these laws would go away somehow?

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#452

Post by srs_sput »

maxxxxx wrote: post #5

I wish the US would adopt the German model where unions are for whole sectors. That way it's a level playing field for all companies.

I feel so confused by the large negative reaction to this thread.

The unions in other countries have done great things for workers. In Germany, most employed individuals get 6 weeks of vacation and 35 to 40 hour a week contracts.

People are scared they're salary is going to go down the hole for some reason. A tech union can exist with pay scales that match current peoples compensation.

Articles like this really put into perspective how strong the American perspective is here.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#453

Post by iscrewyou »

EpicEng wrote: post #416
iscrewyou wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Union will help. Unions usually have probationary times before they start representing a new employee. For a year of probationary time, it's plenty to know if the employee is a good fit. If not, the employee can be let go and doesn't get the help of the union. And union is by the employees, for the employees. If the person is truly disruptive and slipped through the 1 year mark, unions don't just back you up regardle…

In my second hand experience (friends and family, IBEW and automotive workers) this is not at all the case. Admittedly, second hand information and only two locals, but the amount of incompetence and ineptitude that they tell me about is astounding.

I think the problem gets out of hand when the represented employees become too large. If you have a nationalized union for many types of professions all under one umbrella, I can see your issue. There are those cases today as we speak. But if you have a focused union for a specific profession in a specific region, it can be easily managed and be a representative.

For example, a national union of software engineers would not be a great idea. (Even with local branches) Too many factors to consider to come to agreement. I guess a lot more sacrifice on the employees part nationally when mou negotiations are happening.

But if you have a California union for software engineers who are in a media industry, you have really focused the goals to a set of people. They can negotiate by looking at a union formed by google employees. Same thing with google. Vice versa, Just a union for google employees. They negotiate on their own or look at the benefits of a union provided by, say, Facebook.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#454

Post by monocasa »

czbond wrote: post #428
monocasa wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Have the poor just considered not being poor?"

Your emotional response to my logical statement doesn't necessitate a downvote.... Edit: it should be inspiring, bc it shows that literally anyone middle class or above can be incredibly wealthy if principles are followed for 3-4 generations.

> Your emotional response to my logical statement

Wealth inequality has been increasing for 40 years despite worker productivity rising. Nearly every metric shows the rungs to wealth being pulled away, and I'm the non logical one here?

> doesn't necessitate a downvote

You were already downvoted before I commented.

> should be inspiring, bc it shows that literally anyone middle class or above can be incredibly wealthy if principles are followed for 3-4 generations.

You didn't 'show' anything; you simply stated economic religion.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#455

Post by cbhl »

xienze wrote: post #165
cbhl wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reasonably well paid doesn't alway hold compared to the cost (and supply) of housing in the bay area; new grads are often forced to share bedrooms even though they make $110k+. (This isn't entirely tech companies' fault -- homeowners are not incentivized to allow housing growth to match new jobs, and California has been through many booms and busts in the past, so it is conservative in building out new capacity.) Mod…

> Reasonably well paid doesn't alway hold compared to the cost (and supply) of housing in the bay area; new grads are often forced to share bedrooms even though they make $110k+. Yes, this is true, but I wonder if anyone is going to someday connect the dots between "crazy high average salary" and "high housing prices". Simply raising wages doesn't in and of itself make housing more affordable... it kicks off a feedba…

I think folks have, but it's hard for any one group to break the loop:

Local government mostly represents native San Franciscans who, understandably, do not want to give up their home so that "other people" can live there (even if, by utilitarian standards, more of those other people can live there).

Folks who moved to the Bay Area in search of employment in tech (both immigrants and Americans who are not "native San Franciscans") who desire more housing are not always represented in local government. (In some local meetings, folks shoot down your opinion if you aren't born in SF.)

For CEOs/management, telecommuting and remote sites can make your company less nimble / competitive. Remote workers get left out of "serendipitous microkitchen discussions", and coordinating across sites/time zones is more work than just having one big all-hands in one big campus. (Can be mitigated by starting with a remote-first culture, but this is very hard to bolt on to an existing company.)

Finally, companies can't exactly reduce their hiring (number of roles) or salaries in collaboration with their neighbours to reduce housing prices.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#456

Post by jononor »

edoo wrote: post #361
bargl wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this means we need to re-think how unions work. It should be used to create fair workplaces. My concern with the anti-union rhetoric in the USA is that we then turn to the government to protect workers. I think it's a lot better to have a union vs government as long as that union isn't protected from competition like they are today. If we can introduce competition into unions then they might better serve the…

Having competing unions is an interesting concept. It may be a hard sell because technically the primary legal ability of a union is prevent competition among the workers. If you are a rock star you can't get hired at a greater wage. If you are a nepotism cling on you can't get fired or demoted.

In Norway, each employee freely chooses their union. It is common in some industries that people belong to several different unions, and that some are not part of union. And usually they are based on particular profession, like engineering or economics. Unions then have more a passive role, offering services like free legal representation, better insurance deals, and training.

Only some areas like teachers seem to have near-homogeneous membership and unions taking an active role. And this seems mostly to be because 90% have the same employeer - the state (public education). Because of standardized working terms (incl salary), they have to be negotiated centrally.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#457

Post by Retra »

cc439 wrote: post #450
Retra wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whose competition? Other companies are not employee's competition, they are potential places to work. They only compete with the company, not the employees.

How many companies are located within such close geographic proximity to their competitors that employees can choose to work for the competition without moving to a completely separate place? Outside of natural resource extraction, this kind of thinking only applies to nascent eras of new and flourishing industries such as the late 19th century steel industry, early 20th century automobile industry, and current SV-ce…

None of that is relevant to the employer-employee relationship. My employer's competition is not my competition. Even if there were no hiring competitors, they would still not be my competition. I would still want equitable bargaining power with my employer.

And regardless of that, if my employer is willing to pay our CEO over 20x what they pay their average employee, they are not in a position to niggle over the kinds of systemic inefficiencies they would suffer under a union.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#458

Post by hannasanarion »

naravara wrote: post #340
InTheArena wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's the point, "us vs them" is pretty good upgrade from "me vs them" But a huge step down from "Us"

>But a huge step down from "Us" This sounds like an argument for full worker control/employee ownership, not an argument against a union.

Ding Ding Ding we have a winner.

The only way to solve the inherent adversity in the employer/employee relationship is to eliminate the employer/employee distinction.

Expecting owners to be fair by default is to be at the whim of their charity. "Friendly work environment" and other anti-union canards are merely an attempt to paper over exploitative behavior with flowery words. Unions are a stopgap at best.

The only business that can reliably be expected to run ethically is one that is owned by the workers.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#459

Post by EliRivers »

cpursley wrote: post #344
BrainInAJar wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest lie capitalists ever told you was that unions were about money. They're about control. How's your open plan office? Do you like it? Can you do anything about it? Unions can help.

Or you can go work for a normal company that treats its employees well. There's plenty of them out there; it's a competitive market for good staff. *Edit: I don't understand the downvotes. If you're in tech at the moment and somewhat competent, you can basically name your price and benefits.

If you're in tech at the moment and somewhat competent, you can basically name your price and benefits.

In some regions of some countries.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#460

Post by root_axis »

bendbro wrote: post #415
root_axis wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I regard it as a privilege because most people outside of programming work a lot harder and get paid a lot less.

My experience has been that most people work a lot less and get paid a lot less. Some obviously work more, but in general I’d say programming is a job where you spend most of your time working and little of your time idle. Many entry level jobs have workers spending significant time doing nothing. Salaries and work expectations are built around that. I’d agree it is a privilege to be able to hold a job that works you…

> I’d say programming is a job where you spend most of your time working and little of your time idle

I have to vehemently disagree with this. I have observed that most programmers work something like 3-6 hours a day and the rest of that time is spent browsing reddit/hn or playing ping-pong or some other distraction. Also, every single place I've worked that pays engineers well also has a culture where engineers take 1-2 hour lunches regularly, not to mention full time or part time work-from-home schedules and unlimited bathroom breaks. Of course, at every organization there are those workhorse developers who drink Soylent and coffee instead of breaking for lunch and leave after the whole office is empty, but they are relatively rare.

> Many entry level jobs have workers spending significant time doing nothing.

Do you have any examples? I'd argue that your average waiter works harder than your average programmer. Programming jobs require much more specialized expertise but the work itself is about as easy as it gets; and it's also much more forgiving compared to just about every other profession. Certainly, if you're "spending significant time doing nothing" while working at a restaurant, you will be fired very quickly.

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