Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018) • Hacker News Board

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#171

Post by zeristor » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 9:28 AM UTC

modernyogihippy wrote: post #135

twblalock wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe more people should go into the trades - and not be funneled into higher education. We desperately need better infrastructure, more housing, tangible things. Not everyone is cut out for college. This is a common line of argument, but you will find that many tradesmen hope their children will go to college and get office jobs. The trades are hard on the body. Some trades are hazardous. An injury or medical prob…

> The trades are hard on the body. Some trades are hazardous. An injury or medical problem that would be a hassle for someone with an office job can be career-ending for people in the trades. Very true. I know a Uber driver who used to install and repair ACs. Unfortunately, one day, he had a mishap leading to a serious back injury. He was told he couldn't carry on in this line of work. He had no other skills or means…

This is a real problem, and probably the core of the issue the toll manual jobs takes on the body. I imagine with careful thought quite a few of these issues could be reduced.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#172

Post by anewhnaccount2 » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 9:28 AM UTC

firstplacelast wrote: post #2

Make college available for everyone for free, but make asking for and talking about degrees illegal in job interviews. Force employers to actually vet people for what they know and can do and not force otherwise capable people to jump through expensive hoops to display pseudo-signals. Not only will we be able to help people improve their skills as a society, but I bet college enrollment goes down across the board bec…

Clearly yours is an unpopular opinion, but I often find myself similarly minded. To me, there should definitely be places/institutions of learning, but I think a lot of problems come from the bundling of learning, assessment (not including formative assessment, which is a teach tool) and qualification. Perhaps a decoupling could ease us into a situation where where the institutions help people engage in lifelong study alongside work, since the idea that the qualification is a prerequisite has been removed.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#173

Post by dorgo » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 9:41 AM UTC

fzeroracer wrote: post #137

twblalock wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe more people should go into the trades - and not be funneled into higher education. We desperately need better infrastructure, more housing, tangible things. Not everyone is cut out for college. This is a common line of argument, but you will find that many tradesmen hope their children will go to college and get office jobs. The trades are hard on the body. Some trades are hazardous. An injury or medical prob…

It's not exactly trade-related but as I've mentioned in the past my parents were fishermen. Similar to the trades, it's a very physically intense job that burns out your body, requires long hours and can be pretty dangerous. After seeing how my parents ended up, it's no wonder to me why people would avoid the trades. We simply don't have the safety nets in place to protect people who burn out from those jobs, and no…

I have an office job and I feel the need for physical activity. I take every opportunity: help out a friend to move to a new flat, help on construction site, whatever it is. I never saw physical activity as something that damages my body (besides normal muscle aches or blister on skin - which heal after some days). Is it so different to do this regularly/daily?

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#174

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 9:44 AM UTC

unimpressive wrote: post #107

BucketSort wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When we are electing the president by the same principle, I assure you that it is even worse than you can imagine. Societal collapse is imminent. Those who are comforted by their station in life always think they are living in a utopia. You are surrounded by fake smiles adorning people forced into subservience. At one time the myth that hard work and dedication would pay off in the end kept people in line, the "ameri…

Your narrative is not actually evidence (even if I suspect you may in fact be right).

The evidence is in crumbling infrastructure, poor provision of essential social investment, and increasing political and social extremism.

Short-term greed turns out to be a ridiculously naive, stupid, and short-sighted way to run an economy.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#175

Post by _hao » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 9:48 AM UTC

I'm not from the US (born in Eastern Europe), but I'd like to share some of my own experience.

I'm 26 now and I barely finished high-school because I thought it was a waste of time and I was working on my own projects and learning everything I could on my own about CS. My last year at school (turned 18 just before the start of the school year) I found a job as a QA in a small outsourcing company and didn't even attend classes. I didn't even care it wasn't a dev job. I wanted to be around devs and see how it is to actually work in a real company.

Now the important question here is... Why would they hire me, a person that can legally work, but not having a high school diploma? There were a couple of factors that played in my favor. First - it was basically a contract for 1 year, with 3 months of trial period. I was supposed to take the place of a woman that went in maternity. Second - I wanted a laughably low salary, really low. To me it was a lot of money at that time, but I didn't know my worth. Third - I did really well on the interview and I managed to prove to the owners of the company that I can do this job.

They hired me.

I did my job well and after the trial period my boss pulled me to the side and offered me a permanent contract. I said yes without even thinking. He said that it's usually normal to ask for a raise after your trial ends and I asked for something stupid like 5%. He smiled at me and gave me a 100% raise and the position of a dev.

I got lucky. I've thought a lot about it, but I really think that luck was on my side there. I obviously did the job good, and to this day it's the company I've worked the longest for - over 3 years.

By the way I got A's on all of my final exams (had to book holiday to go and take them haha) and got my diploma. After that I decided to enroll in university, but it was just the same as in high school. After 1 semester I couldn't escape the feeling that I was wasting my time. I continued, but in the end I dropped out. I think I made a mistake enrolling in a CS course. I should've went for something that's interesting to me, but not necessarily to do as a living like Economics, Physics, Philosophy, History etc.

I like the idea of higher education and I'm still thinking about enrolling and pursuing a degree in a different field, but I wouldn't go for a CS degree again. My 8 years in the industry now have taught me everything I need to deal with it.

EDIT: Grammar, spelling

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#176

Post by wastedhours » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 10:06 AM UTC

asaph wrote: post #51

justinzollars wrote: post #4

I feel like everyone is doing social media marketing - or something equally useless while the world around us is breaking down. In the Bay Area, in San Francisco specifically, voters allocated funds to fix or replace every single Bart escalator. The best hope we have for completing this job is 7 years. Yes you read this correctly 7 years. The problem is we do not have enough licensed escalator mechanics to do the wor…

Why are 100% of the BART escalators in such dire need of repair or replacement? Are they poor products? Are they very old? Are they poorly maintained?

Like all the lightbulbs blowing in your house at the same time, they have a lifecycle and since a decent number of them were installed in the same timeframe, they're probably coming due a replacement at the same time ("same time" being the split across the 7 years referenced).

Since you're planning on having a multi-year infra project on the go and getting the expertise rolling, it's probably worth extending it across the network (even the newer ones), as I'd assume there's some economies of scale involved in parts and labour.

Judging by other comments in the thread, they're reaching their natural life.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#177

Post by wehadfun » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 10:07 AM UTC

godzillabrennus wrote: post #88

baroffoos wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assure you that if the job is paying enough people will drop any social stigma against trades jobs right away. I'll pick a paid off nice house over showing off to my friends. Although I'm sure the new house is much easier to show off than an office job. I have talked to people working hard physical labor jobs and they make hardly more than I do as a junior/mid level web dev but they are doing back breaking work 6 d…

The national shortage of truck drivers in America does not support your argument. I heard from someone at 160 Driving Academy that you can make six figures with a CDL and the trucking companies will pay you to get one. That's not even as hard on the body as other physical jobs. It is not a well regarded and the community of peers you interact with means that it isn't a very desirable job.

It is possible to make 6 figures driving a truck but not very likely.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#178

Post by Maken » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 10:26 AM UTC

FranzFerdiNaN wrote: post #120

rumcajz wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Switzerland, most people go into trades. Higher education is not seen ad having higher status in any way. Also, if you call a plumber to fix your broken sink, it's going to be really expensive.

So most people go into trades and yet it’s still incredibly expensive to hire a tradesperson? Sounds like the market is failing.

Given the option, people don't flock to low paying jobs, so the market works both ways. If you want to have a good pool of good workers you have to pay accordingly.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#179

Post by ironic_ali » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 10:28 AM UTC

dorgo wrote: post #173

fzeroracer wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not exactly trade-related but as I've mentioned in the past my parents were fishermen. Similar to the trades, it's a very physically intense job that burns out your body, requires long hours and can be pretty dangerous. After seeing how my parents ended up, it's no wonder to me why people would avoid the trades. We simply don't have the safety nets in place to protect people who burn out from those jobs, and no…

I have an office job and I feel the need for physical activity. I take every opportunity: help out a friend to move to a new flat, help on construction site, whatever it is. I never saw physical activity as something that damages my body (besides normal muscle aches or blister on skin - which heal after some days). Is it so different to do this regularly/daily?

> Is it so different to do this regularly/daily?

Before I got into IT in the late 90's (I was 19-20 yrs), I had various construction work to tide me over. Like climbing a 4 metre ladder onto a roof with 40KG rolls of pitch, or setting rebar (the metal reinforcement for concrete) in -5C in the early morning, so when it heats up later the concrete can be poured. Just a couple of many stories where a slip was life or work ending - or being so bone cold you couldn't think.

Talking to the older guys left me with only one opinion, get out of construction.

A guy I know still from back then was cutting through a floor with a circular saw and went through the main electricity line into the building. The line wasn't on the plans... He lived by some amazing luck, but there was a very big bang.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#180

Post by lotsofpulp » Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 10:37 AM UTC

nostrebored wrote: post #17

logicx24 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the world really needs more escalator mechanics, then salaries for them will rise commensurate to demand and people will train to become escalator mechanics. Until then, they'll continue with other pursuits that are more profitable to them. This is how things have always been, unless you want to reinstitute medieval guilds, and I don't see a problem with it. Generally, campaigning to make people to do something ou…

That assumes perfect knowledge. How many of you have ever stopped to check what an escalator mechanic makes?

You don’t need to assume perfect knowledge. There’s a reason the rich areas in town are all filled with doctors/lawyers/financiers/tech workers/engineers. They’re healthier, have better work hours, have more time and opportunity to move up the system. Anyone can see this, they would be stupid not to wish the same for their children.

And to to put one’s body in the way of significant harm, and work late night hours and give up your social life, anyone who has the option of doing something else is going to want quite a bit of premium. Not just $80k/year. Same goes for needing someone in rural areas.