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Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

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Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#11

Post by doitLP »

firstplacelast wrote: post #2

Make college available for everyone for free, but make asking for and talking about degrees illegal in job interviews. Force employers to actually vet people for what they know and can do and not force otherwise capable people to jump through expensive hoops to display pseudo-signals. Not only will we be able to help people improve their skills as a society, but I bet college enrollment goes down across the board bec…

> Force employers to actually vet people for what they know and can do

How do you propose to do that? At least with developers you can make the candidate do some toy project or whiteboard but that process is woefully flawed and controversial.

That’s tech, but what if you’re hiring for something more abstract, like Human Resources or sales?

What if you just need a person who can learn quickly and is easy to work with?

Almost every job I was in changed significantly within a year of being there. New tasks, new responsibilities, new teams. I grew with the changes or I left when I wanted a change. Screening upfront for specific skills only in all but the most narrow jobs will have limited usefulness.

It seems to me the best way to accomplish this is to have a clear statement of the role, provide excellent on-boarding and make hiring and firing much easier, so you can quickly end a relationship that’s not definitely not working.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#12

Post by tux1968 »

Simulacra wrote: post #3

The key problem I think, with higher education, is that we force students to take classes in the name of liberal education. If no one is required to take a class, then students might not take that class, which leads to that professor's usefulness, and perhaps career, coming into question. If anything universities are increasing not only the number of classes a student has to take, but also increasing seemingly-pointl…

Eric Weinstein talked about the same thing in an Interview a while back: “I think that what happened, if we think about it historically, is that we had this beautiful period of fairly reliable, high, evenly distributed technologically led growth after World War II, up until about 1970. We predicated all of our institutions on this expectation that this growth was some sort of normal thing we could depend upon in the future.”

But then, that growth ran out, and as Weinstein says, “We were left with all of our institutions looking in some form or another like a Ponzi scheme.”

Was from here: https://youtu.be/LruYnDjkOgU?t=895

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#13

Post by [deleted] »

justinzollars wrote: post #4

I feel like everyone is doing social media marketing - or something equally useless while the world around us is breaking down. In the Bay Area, in San Francisco specifically, voters allocated funds to fix or replace every single Bart escalator. The best hope we have for completing this job is 7 years. Yes you read this correctly 7 years. The problem is we do not have enough licensed escalator mechanics to do the wor…

[deleted]

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#14

Post by logicx24 »

justinzollars wrote: post #4

I feel like everyone is doing social media marketing - or something equally useless while the world around us is breaking down. In the Bay Area, in San Francisco specifically, voters allocated funds to fix or replace every single Bart escalator. The best hope we have for completing this job is 7 years. Yes you read this correctly 7 years. The problem is we do not have enough licensed escalator mechanics to do the wor…

If the world really needs more escalator mechanics, then salaries for them will rise commensurate to demand and people will train to become escalator mechanics. Until then, they'll continue with other pursuits that are more profitable to them. This is how things have always been, unless you want to reinstitute medieval guilds, and I don't see a problem with it.

Generally, campaigning to make people to do something out of a sense of moral propriety is the wrong approach to creating change.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#15

Post by cbhl »

boazbarak wrote: post #10
Zanni wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a side effect of Caplan's main objection, that a college degree has become a credential, used for signaling, and not indicating any real merit or learning. Once students recognize that (and they have), they put in the bare minimum to get the credential, and administrators respond by forcing new minimums. It's still possible to get a good education if you choose your institution, classes and professors wisely,…

I don't presume my institution is representative (nor that it isn't), but for what it's worth, most students I see are not slackers at all. Students often choose the harder courses, and many of them require a significant amount of work (a typical CS course requires 12 hours of work outside lecture and many require much more).

For a CS degree, the slackers can read the slides at home, do the assignments from home, and only come in to do the exams. You're not going to see them until the graduation ceremony. (At least, I didn't.)

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#16

Post by twblalock »

justinzollars wrote: post #4

I feel like everyone is doing social media marketing - or something equally useless while the world around us is breaking down. In the Bay Area, in San Francisco specifically, voters allocated funds to fix or replace every single Bart escalator. The best hope we have for completing this job is 7 years. Yes you read this correctly 7 years. The problem is we do not have enough licensed escalator mechanics to do the wor…

> Maybe more people should go into the trades - and not be funneled into higher education. We desperately need better infrastructure, more housing, tangible things. Not everyone is cut out for college.

This is a common line of argument, but you will find that many tradesmen hope their children will go to college and get office jobs.

The trades are hard on the body. Some trades are hazardous. An injury or medical problem that would be a hassle for someone with an office job can be career-ending for people in the trades.

There aren't a lot of jobs for people in middle age who can't physically work a trade anymore due to age or illness or injury -- it's about as bad as being a laid-off factory worker.

The trades also get hit very hard in recessions as people build fewer things, infrastructure spending gets cut or postponed, etc. That, combined with the serious impact of medical problems and injuries I just mentioned, can make the trades more financially precarious than they seem to be.

I'm not opposed to people going into the trades, but some of the pro-trade-education arguments need a reality check. People need to know about the downsides.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#17

Post by nostrebored »

logicx24 wrote: post #14
justinzollars wrote: post #4

I feel like everyone is doing social media marketing - or something equally useless while the world around us is breaking down. In the Bay Area, in San Francisco specifically, voters allocated funds to fix or replace every single Bart escalator. The best hope we have for completing this job is 7 years. Yes you read this correctly 7 years. The problem is we do not have enough licensed escalator mechanics to do the wor…

If the world really needs more escalator mechanics, then salaries for them will rise commensurate to demand and people will train to become escalator mechanics. Until then, they'll continue with other pursuits that are more profitable to them. This is how things have always been, unless you want to reinstitute medieval guilds, and I don't see a problem with it. Generally, campaigning to make people to do something ou…

That assumes perfect knowledge. How many of you have ever stopped to check what an escalator mechanic makes?

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#18

Post by tensor »

Simulacra wrote: post #3

The key problem I think, with higher education, is that we force students to take classes in the name of liberal education. If no one is required to take a class, then students might not take that class, which leads to that professor's usefulness, and perhaps career, coming into question. If anything universities are increasing not only the number of classes a student has to take, but also increasing seemingly-pointl…

A professor's usefulness is their research. Teaching is an added benefit for the public. Universities are not trade schools.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#19

Post by BucketSort »

logicx24 wrote: post #14
justinzollars wrote: post #4

I feel like everyone is doing social media marketing - or something equally useless while the world around us is breaking down. In the Bay Area, in San Francisco specifically, voters allocated funds to fix or replace every single Bart escalator. The best hope we have for completing this job is 7 years. Yes you read this correctly 7 years. The problem is we do not have enough licensed escalator mechanics to do the wor…

If the world really needs more escalator mechanics, then salaries for them will rise commensurate to demand and people will train to become escalator mechanics. Until then, they'll continue with other pursuits that are more profitable to them. This is how things have always been, unless you want to reinstitute medieval guilds, and I don't see a problem with it. Generally, campaigning to make people to do something ou…

You are assuming that the world is well ordered and that all things will balance like that, but it isn't. People don't see those jobs as options, they aren't even aware of the opportunities, and there is social stigma against being in the trades. Even if you make a nice living in the trades, you will take a hit to your social identity, making you less attractive to others. That's how toxic our culture is right now. People don't value good work anymore, they value branding and image. And we are going to collapse because of it.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#20

Post by analog31 »

Kaplan can talk until he's blue in the face, but why aren't people going into the trades right now if it's such a good idea? If it's explained by the market value of a college degree, what's he going to do about that?

There are some negatives to working in the trades. For one thing, manual labor takes a toll on your body. I've watched tradesmen work at my house and at my workplace. If they're my age, they're broken and hobbling.

How can somebody survive that for long enough to have a decent retirement? How do they survive recessions, which typically affect the construction industry? An economist should be able to show us how to tip the balance. Show us.

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