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Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

theatlantic.com

111–120 of 276 posts

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#111

I feel like everyone is doing social media marketing - or something equally useless while the world around us is breaking down. In the Bay Area, in San Francisco specifically, voters allocated funds to fix or replace every single Bart escalator. The best hope we have for completing this job is 7 years. Yes you read this correctly 7 years. The problem is we do not have enough licensed escalator mechanics to do the wor…

Certified Repair/Mechanic/HVAC isn't what it used to be. After my landlord paid $3500 to replace an in wall heater, a 20min operation I easily knew how to do, I honestly considered switching jobs. Do something with my hands be outside, not stuck in an office...

Then I looked it up. The test is intense failing on your first try is pretty common. You have to do 4 years full time of apprenticeship under a licensed contractor who unless they are family (nepotism) will pay you the minimum they can get away with. (This is why you tend to see the kids take over the parents Pumbling/HVAC/Electricians businesses)

Only after all that can you finally go on your own. From then on you owe $3k/yr to the state for insurance in case you screw up and kill someone and the state fund has to pay out. You have to pay this every year along with a $350/yr license renewal and show you are active in the trade, otherwise you can have your license revoked. Take at least 8 credits of continuing education each year as it relates to your license, which you must pass for credit (to keep up with a changing field). Take out your own insurance in case you screw up kill or injure someone and they sue you. Your tax rate is significantly higher as a contractor as will be your health insurance because you no longer have a large collective bargaining power.

Doing the math I'm surprised new people join in the bay area. The only way it makes sense is if you were already here with family or have rent control. Or you do your apprenticeship somewhere cheap like Bakersfield then move to the Bay assuming you can afford rent till you build a solid list of clients.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#112

I feel like everyone is doing social media marketing - or something equally useless while the world around us is breaking down. In the Bay Area, in San Francisco specifically, voters allocated funds to fix or replace every single Bart escalator. The best hope we have for completing this job is 7 years. Yes you read this correctly 7 years. The problem is we do not have enough licensed escalator mechanics to do the wor…

> Maybe more people should go into the trades - and not be funneled into higher education. We desperately need better infrastructure, more housing, tangible things. Not everyone is cut out for college. This is a common line of argument, but you will find that many tradesmen hope their children will go to college and get office jobs. The trades are hard on the body. Some trades are hazardous. An injury or medical prob…

> The trades are hard on the body. Some trades are hazardous. An injury or medical problem that would be a hassle for someone with an office job can be career-ending for people in the trades.

This is definitely true and I know a few people who this has been a huge issue for but I'm not so convinced it can be applied to the future. There is a lot more "automation" now than when the currently burnt out entered the industry, tools from nail guns to scissor lifts are now a lot more affordable and even mandated. There's also been a lot of improvements improvements to OHS and medicine in general, kids seem to be a lot more fitness obsessed too. They'll always be harder on the body, but I would expect the 50 year old tradesmen in 30 years time to be in much better condition than the 50 year old tradesmen today.

On the other hand, they keep lifting the retirement age so if this doesn't pan out they'll be even worse off.

> The trades also get hit very hard in recessions as people build fewer things

Is this objectively true? It seems to be common wisdom but I've never seen data to back it up. A lot of trades are more maintenance than new builds and can't be cut. I understand construction can take a big hit, but we still need almost as many plumbers and mechanics during a recession.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#113

I feel like everyone is doing social media marketing - or something equally useless while the world around us is breaking down. In the Bay Area, in San Francisco specifically, voters allocated funds to fix or replace every single Bart escalator. The best hope we have for completing this job is 7 years. Yes you read this correctly 7 years. The problem is we do not have enough licensed escalator mechanics to do the wor…

On a local enough scale, it’s always about the money. If SF offered $1 million a year plus a $1 million relocation bonus to escalator mechanics, they’d fill those jobs by next week. You may say, rightly, that it’s ridiculous to pay that much - but at that point we’ve stopped talking about availability and started talking about price. So start from there and move the price as appropriate.

Now, if every municipality in the US tried to do this, there would be a legitimate shortage. The highest bidders would get their mechanics. The rest would have to wait, possibly hiring from the inevitable influx of new escalator mechanics a few years later.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And we are going to collapse because of it. It's not that bad.

When we are electing the president by the same principle, I assure you that it is even worse than you can imagine. Societal collapse is imminent. Those who are comforted by their station in life always think they are living in a utopia. You are surrounded by fake smiles adorning people forced into subservience. At one time the myth that hard work and dedication would pay off in the end kept people in line, the "ameri…

[deleted]

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#115

> From kindergarten on, students spend thousands of hours studying subjects irrelevant to the modern labor market. Why do English classes focus on literature and poetry instead of business and technical writing? uggggh this , this market-driven bullshit that assumes "business" should be the end goal of all human behavior English classes focus on literature and poetry because maybe you should have some sense of beauty…

awrite I couldn't stop thinking about this, have some more ranting:

From a purely business standpoint, if we stop exposing kids to classes that say "hey this creative thing is something you could do" we lose a bunch of people deciding to try and make that their career, which means we lose a significant portion of the entertainment industry - have fun with a significantly reduced selection of books/movies/games/music/etc to entertain you when you're taking a break from creating shareholder value, I guess there's always masturbating to the thought of how much shareholder value you're creating? Some quick searching suggests that Hollywood alone is from 3-6% of America's GDP, plus whatever value you may put on its use as global propaganda for American social values.

Also liberal arts majors end up in advertising, which I'm seeing values of anywhere from 1-19% of the US GDP. Plus whatever amount of value an ad campaign ads by getting people to buy whatever it's selling, how much junk have you bought that you never ended up using, or was way overpriced for what it did, because of ads? Arguably the world might be better off if every single one of those people quit using their skills to help sell cheap disposable junk made halfway across the world by people paid pennies a day but that's another matter.

But nah. Let's all just look for work that's gonna pay us the most cold hard cash, which judging by the top sector of the GDP is real estate and finance. Let's just learn that shit. Nothing else. I'm sure that'll be a fun way to live.

The US education system is fucked up. I can agree with this guy on that. But I don't think eliminating everything but "what will get you a job" is gonna help. Education funding has been cut, and cut, and cut some more, wealth's been concentrated in fewer and fewer hands. Tax those ultra-rich assholes, spread that money around into education, maybe reverse decades of cuts to stuff like the NEA as well (and give a huge grant to my project to dig up Jesse Helms' rotting corpse and fuck it in the face with a jackhammer in revenge for his role in that), give teachers more power to actually engage their students instead of focusing entirely on being able to regurgitate the answers to the standardized tests that determine which schools get their funding cut the least next year. Oh and also raise the goddamn minimum wage so that someone trying to turn their passion for art into a full-time career has time to do that instead of having to work three shitty part-time jobs just to keep a roof over their head.

In summary, this guy is next in line for my proposal for a performance art project in which I dig up dead jerkwads who think the arts are useless, and fuck them in the face with a jackhammer. He's not dead yet? I'll wait. I got time.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#116
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I mean by the value, is what employers are willing to pay. Even Kaplan admits that college graduates get paid more. The subsidy should drive more people into college, but depress the wages of college graduates. In fact, Kaplan admits that college increases pay more than it increases productivity -- that it benefits graduates more than it benefits countries as a whole, suggesting that something about college educ…

> What I mean by the value, is what employers are willing to pay. Even Kaplan admits that college graduates get paid more. The subsidy should drive more people into college, but depress the wages of college graduates. The fact that college graduates get paid more seems adequately explained by the signalling model he presents. How else do you explain the big pay differences for college graduates vs people who dropped…

>The fact that college graduates get paid more seems adequately explained by the signalling model he presents. How else do you explain the big pay differences for college graduates vs people who dropped out early? They are bigger than you'd expect from just skill/knowledge gain.

Well, one thing to consider is that you can structure things so that you avoid all the hard classes until the end, and then leave without taking them. I found myself in this situation and had to 'boss rush' all the hard STEM classes at once, which wasn't fun and probably usually results in someone just dropping out.

Confirming this isn't what's happening might be one explanation for the sheepskin effect. (Of course, just because it might be doesn't mean it is, I think Occam's Razor favors Caplan here).

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assure you that if the job is paying enough people will drop any social stigma against trades jobs right away. I'll pick a paid off nice house over showing off to my friends. Although I'm sure the new house is much easier to show off than an office job. I have talked to people working hard physical labor jobs and they make hardly more than I do as a junior/mid level web dev but they are doing back breaking work 6 d…

The national shortage of truck drivers in America does not support your argument. I heard from someone at 160 Driving Academy that you can make six figures with a CDL and the trucking companies will pay you to get one. That's not even as hard on the body as other physical jobs. It is not a well regarded and the community of peers you interact with means that it isn't a very desirable job.

Yeah sure, you can make that after you are in the business for years, own your own truck, have a flawless record, and all that. What they don't mention is you not going home at the end of the day, or the hours you don't get paid waiting for other people to unload your or load your truck, or the social isolation, or the fact that a small misstep could cost you your entire career with your CDL and driving experience becoming useless.

The reason we lack truck drivers is because of pay, it costs a lot of money to get people to forgo a family, or a home, or sleeping in their own bed, waiting around in the middle of nowhere not getting paid just waiting, plus the costs of road food, the cost of maintaining and insuring your own truck, ect.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pay me enough and I will learn how to replace an escalator.

Sorry, a key aspect to any "labor crisis" is that you can't be paid very much. I mean, do you think that as one of the 10 escalator technicians in your city, you should be paid as well as one of the 500 doctors? Doctors are very important people.

If escalator mechanics are not very important people then how is there a crisis when they are missing?

Do I declare a labor crisis because I can't find senior developers to work on my website for $10 per hour?

The buyer doesn't get to decide that a job is not important so someone else is expected to do it cheaply. Either the job is not important so its no problem if no one takes it or it is important so you will pay whatever it takes to get it done.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish more people knew about how amazing jobs in the trades can be. I've lived in the bay for most of my 20s now and have seen quite a few blue collar folk do extremely well. Right now in the bay we have IBEW journeyman electricians making around 200k a year. Shoot. Pipefitters, Ironworkers, they all do well.

How many years of back breaking labour to reach those levels of compensation?

It's hard work but 'back breaking' would be a misconception. These guys are encouraged to work safely and smart and as a result often have careers that span 20 to 30 years.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#120
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe more people should go into the trades - and not be funneled into higher education. We desperately need better infrastructure, more housing, tangible things. Not everyone is cut out for college. This is a common line of argument, but you will find that many tradesmen hope their children will go to college and get office jobs. The trades are hard on the body. Some trades are hazardous. An injury or medical prob…

In Switzerland, most people go into trades. Higher education is not seen ad having higher status in any way. Also, if you call a plumber to fix your broken sink, it's going to be really expensive.

So most people go into trades and yet it’s still incredibly expensive to hire a tradesperson? Sounds like the market is failing.
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