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Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

theatlantic.com

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Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#161

Post by bhl »

Simulacra wrote: post #3

The key problem I think, with higher education, is that we force students to take classes in the name of liberal education. If no one is required to take a class, then students might not take that class, which leads to that professor's usefulness, and perhaps career, coming into question. If anything universities are increasing not only the number of classes a student has to take, but also increasing seemingly-pointl…

The issue with a liberal arts education is not that certain classes are mandatory: it's that the mandatory classes are simply not useful or general enough.

An easy solution would just to make replacements. Have students take introductory classes like data science, logic and reasoning, ethics, public policy, etc.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#162

Post by badpun »

Delfino wrote: post #50
justinzollars wrote: post #4

I feel like everyone is doing social media marketing - or something equally useless while the world around us is breaking down. In the Bay Area, in San Francisco specifically, voters allocated funds to fix or replace every single Bart escalator. The best hope we have for completing this job is 7 years. Yes you read this correctly 7 years. The problem is we do not have enough licensed escalator mechanics to do the wor…

I agree with some of what you said but as an educator, the statement "Not everyone is cut out for college." doesn't sit well with me. Outside of some severe disabilities, I don't think there's anything inherent about who can and can't eventually succeed in college. Some people aren't adequately prepared for college by the time they turn 18 and that's a societal failure. Everyone should have the opportunity to go to a…

Jordan Peterson pointed out that the army has a cutoff of IQ 85 (IIRC) for their recruits. In the army’s estimation, they can’t find ANY job in the military that such people would be adequate for - and they might very well be right (it’s against their interest to reject prospective recruits). So, if such people of low intelligence (tens of millions of them in the US) are not good enough for grunt jobs, how well will they do in college?

For the silent downvoter: do you believe that anyone can do anything? I for one, have relatively high intelligence and I also get sick (cold etc.) easily. The colds rule out any kind of physical job, as much as I would like to be a jet engine mechanic for example, and I’m pretty much stuck with desk jobs. Do you believe that, in spite of my immune system being in the wrong part of the bell curve, I would do fine working outdoors?

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#163

Post by arvinsim »

justinzollars wrote: post #4

I feel like everyone is doing social media marketing - or something equally useless while the world around us is breaking down. In the Bay Area, in San Francisco specifically, voters allocated funds to fix or replace every single Bart escalator. The best hope we have for completing this job is 7 years. Yes you read this correctly 7 years. The problem is we do not have enough licensed escalator mechanics to do the wor…

> Maybe more people should go into the trades - and not be funneled into higher education. We desperately need better infrastructure, more housing, tangible things. Not everyone is cut out for college.

I think the root problem is the negative perception of not going to college.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#164

Post by badpun »

Frost1x wrote: post #87
pessimizer wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, a key aspect to any "labor crisis" is that you can't be paid very much. I mean, do you think that as one of the 10 escalator technicians in your city, you should be paid as well as one of the 500 doctors? Doctors are very important people.

I've met with quite a few doctors in my life and many aren't that important or specialized, they simply went through the motions to get there like any profession. We (society) like to put MDs on pedestals because the relationship to life is direct and obvious, but we often ignore just how resilient the human body is and how in most daily situations, doctors aren't dealing in difficult life or death situations. We als…

I believe the OP’s comment (about doctors being important) was sarcastic...

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#165

Post by indigo945 »

brewdad wrote: post #108
pessimizer wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, a key aspect to any "labor crisis" is that you can't be paid very much. I mean, do you think that as one of the 10 escalator technicians in your city, you should be paid as well as one of the 500 doctors? Doctors are very important people.

Have you or anyone you know been killed or severely injured by an escalator? If not, thank a technician.

The comment you're replying to is clearly in snark, lamenting the low wages of escalator technicians despite high demand for their skills.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#166

Post by [deleted] »

justinzollars wrote: post #4

I feel like everyone is doing social media marketing - or something equally useless while the world around us is breaking down. In the Bay Area, in San Francisco specifically, voters allocated funds to fix or replace every single Bart escalator. The best hope we have for completing this job is 7 years. Yes you read this correctly 7 years. The problem is we do not have enough licensed escalator mechanics to do the wor…

[deleted]

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#167

Post by Mirioron »

tzs wrote: post #131
justinzollars wrote: post #4

I feel like everyone is doing social media marketing - or something equally useless while the world around us is breaking down. In the Bay Area, in San Francisco specifically, voters allocated funds to fix or replace every single Bart escalator. The best hope we have for completing this job is 7 years. Yes you read this correctly 7 years. The problem is we do not have enough licensed escalator mechanics to do the wor…

> In the Bay Area, in San Francisco specifically, voters allocated funds to fix or replace every single Bart escalator. The best hope we have for completing this job is 7 years. Yes you read this correctly 7 years. The problem is we do not have enough licensed escalator mechanics to do the work. Money isn't the problem. There are 35000 escalators in the US. If a typical escalator needs to be replaced every 35 years,…

My guess is that the problem is in the licensed repairman part.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#168

Post by Mirioron »

FranzFerdiNaN wrote: post #120
rumcajz wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Switzerland, most people go into trades. Higher education is not seen ad having higher status in any way. Also, if you call a plumber to fix your broken sink, it's going to be really expensive.

So most people go into trades and yet it’s still incredibly expensive to hire a tradesperson? Sounds like the market is failing.

Aren't many of these trades very very heavily regulated? I'm not sure how much of a market you have there in the first place.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#169

Post by zeristor »

justinzollars wrote: post #4

I feel like everyone is doing social media marketing - or something equally useless while the world around us is breaking down. In the Bay Area, in San Francisco specifically, voters allocated funds to fix or replace every single Bart escalator. The best hope we have for completing this job is 7 years. Yes you read this correctly 7 years. The problem is we do not have enough licensed escalator mechanics to do the wor…

This sounds like a job for Bicycle RepairMan!

I think Monty Python was aware of this 40 odd years ago, although it’s one of the few clips not on YouTube.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#170

Post by Kaveren »

mnm1 wrote: post #154

College isn't just about jobs. I studied philosophy, got two diplomas in it and now I write software for a living. Do I regret it? Of course not. I learned a lot in college. I learned a lot about myself. I learned a lot about learning, other people, and the world. I'm glad I didn't waste those four years learning computers, something I was much better able to do on my own. Yes, if the only goal is to learn job skills…

This article isn't the full picture of Caplan's view. I haven't read his book, but here's a timestamped talk [0] at The Heritage Foundation where he addresses this argument. To summarize, he says that he loves "useless" knowledge but that it should be enriching (points to amount of busywork), and that it requires that students are willing participants, which he argues that many of them are not.

Caplan says that the book has an entire chapter dedicated to refuting this argument, which I can't speak to.

[0] https://youtu.be/kCLGURUubzc?t=1893

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