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Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

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Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#81

Post by dbcurtis »

internet_user wrote: post #67
asaph wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll admit I don't know the first thing about escalator repair but I'm confident that a 4 year apprenticeship is absurd. Perhaps that's the real problem. The rules should be amended such that you can get an escalator repair license in 60 days. Problem solved.

Skip college, do a 4 year apprenticeship instead - is that really sound?

That depends on the person, doesn't it? I have a nephew that has had issues with ADD. He is an intelligent young man, but not cut out for the kind of butt-in-seat stamina that it takes to get a college degree. He is currently almost done with a commercial electrician apprenticeship, and has finally hit his stride. He is doing well in his job, and acing all the licensing exams. He also has the kind of personality that cultivates good customer relationships, which makes me think that in a few years he could easily set up his own shop.

Not everybody is well-served by college.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#82

Post by cylinder »

BucketSort wrote: post #19
logicx24 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the world really needs more escalator mechanics, then salaries for them will rise commensurate to demand and people will train to become escalator mechanics. Until then, they'll continue with other pursuits that are more profitable to them. This is how things have always been, unless you want to reinstitute medieval guilds, and I don't see a problem with it. Generally, campaigning to make people to do something ou…

You are assuming that the world is well ordered and that all things will balance like that, but it isn't. People don't see those jobs as options, they aren't even aware of the opportunities, and there is social stigma against being in the trades. Even if you make a nice living in the trades, you will take a hit to your social identity, making you less attractive to others. That's how toxic our culture is right now. P…

Relax. Why do you expect a bunch of escalator mechanics to be on standby, readily available for a once in a generation escalator repair project? That's not how things work.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#83

Post by _AzMoo »

internet_user wrote: post #67
asaph wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll admit I don't know the first thing about escalator repair but I'm confident that a 4 year apprenticeship is absurd. Perhaps that's the real problem. The rules should be amended such that you can get an escalator repair license in 60 days. Problem solved.

Skip college, do a 4 year apprenticeship instead - is that really sound?

At least you get paid in an apprenticeship.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#84

Post by FractalParadigm »

diogenescynic wrote: post #59
twblalock wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe more people should go into the trades - and not be funneled into higher education. We desperately need better infrastructure, more housing, tangible things. Not everyone is cut out for college. This is a common line of argument, but you will find that many tradesmen hope their children will go to college and get office jobs. The trades are hard on the body. Some trades are hazardous. An injury or medical prob…

The answer is working fewer hours. As a society, we are overworked. We should all be pushing for shorter work weeks.

Tradespeople work more hours than anybody I know, and the unfortunate reality seems to be that they have to. Otherwise projects would take twice as long, and in the event of an emergency there could potentially be nobody to answer to it.

Where I am, it's not uncommon to see an electrician or millwright working 70+ hour weeks to meet deadlines or make emergency repairs.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#85

Post by mlazos »

justinzollars wrote: post #4

I feel like everyone is doing social media marketing - or something equally useless while the world around us is breaking down. In the Bay Area, in San Francisco specifically, voters allocated funds to fix or replace every single Bart escalator. The best hope we have for completing this job is 7 years. Yes you read this correctly 7 years. The problem is we do not have enough licensed escalator mechanics to do the wor…

There could also be other reasons for this, like rent being so high that trades people can't afford to live in the area. One of the other comments even points out that trade schools are closing in CA left and right.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#86

Post by robmaister »

boazbarak wrote: post #10
Zanni wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a side effect of Caplan's main objection, that a college degree has become a credential, used for signaling, and not indicating any real merit or learning. Once students recognize that (and they have), they put in the bare minimum to get the credential, and administrators respond by forcing new minimums. It's still possible to get a good education if you choose your institution, classes and professors wisely,…

I don't presume my institution is representative (nor that it isn't), but for what it's worth, most students I see are not slackers at all. Students often choose the harder courses, and many of them require a significant amount of work (a typical CS course requires 12 hours of work outside lecture and many require much more).

I wasn't a slacker until I took a computer graphics class that consumed more of my time than my other 4 classes combined, and I still failed it on a technicality (out for a job interview the day partners were assigned for the final project. Wasn't allowed to do the project alone, there were an odd number of people in the class. If you fail any "section" of the class, you fail the whole class. After back-and-forth with the professor, I contacted my class dean. He said he'd contact the professor, didn't, told me it was too late to change the grade, and then quit)

After that I realized grades were fairly arbitrary and explicitly aimed for Ds in classes I didn't care about and settled for whatever in the classes I did care about.

I've been doing graphics since high school, it was one of the few classes I was really excited about, and it's what I'm currently getting paid to do. I've never failed any other class.

In my opinion, the first two years of CS actually matter. Fundamentals like data structures, algorithms, and maybe even operating systems classes are great. Beyond that, most CS programs tend to be severely outdated - you'll learn more from internships and co-ops than another 2 years of classes.

Of course, take that with a grain of salt since I did know exactly what I wanted to do coming into college.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#87

Post by Frost1x »

pessimizer wrote: post #35
baroffoos wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pay me enough and I will learn how to replace an escalator.

Sorry, a key aspect to any "labor crisis" is that you can't be paid very much. I mean, do you think that as one of the 10 escalator technicians in your city, you should be paid as well as one of the 500 doctors? Doctors are very important people.

I've met with quite a few doctors in my life and many aren't that important or specialized, they simply went through the motions to get there like any profession.

We (society) like to put MDs on pedestals because the relationship to life is direct and obvious, but we often ignore just how resilient the human body is and how in most daily situations, doctors aren't dealing in difficult life or death situations.

We also tend to ignore the indirect effects of other professions' on quality and longevity of life. If a traffic engineer saves tens of thousands of people 10 minutes a day in their commute, that adds up to saving an entire life of time quickly. Just an example of indirect effects on life.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#88

Post by godzillabrennus »

baroffoos wrote: post #27
BucketSort wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are assuming that the world is well ordered and that all things will balance like that, but it isn't. People don't see those jobs as options, they aren't even aware of the opportunities, and there is social stigma against being in the trades. Even if you make a nice living in the trades, you will take a hit to your social identity, making you less attractive to others. That's how toxic our culture is right now. P…

I assure you that if the job is paying enough people will drop any social stigma against trades jobs right away. I'll pick a paid off nice house over showing off to my friends. Although I'm sure the new house is much easier to show off than an office job. I have talked to people working hard physical labor jobs and they make hardly more than I do as a junior/mid level web dev but they are doing back breaking work 6 d…

The national shortage of truck drivers in America does not support your argument. I heard from someone at 160 Driving Academy that you can make six figures with a CDL and the trucking companies will pay you to get one.

That's not even as hard on the body as other physical jobs. It is not a well regarded and the community of peers you interact with means that it isn't a very desirable job.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#89

Post by cf498 »

_AzMoo wrote: post #83
internet_user wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Skip college, do a 4 year apprenticeship instead - is that really sound?

At least you get paid in an apprenticeship.

Do it right and you can get payed in college too. In Germany you have cooperative study programs for fields that are in high demand (like CS). Your degree takes 2 semesters longer in which you work at a company who pays you from start to finish of your study. Rates are similar to early apprenticeships if i am not mistaken. Also no strings attached, you can tell your company to screw itself after you finished your degree. Not finding enough people is a real issue in some fields.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#90

Post by QuadmasterXLII »

“Indeed, in the average study, senior year of college brings more than twice the pay increase of freshman, sophomore, and junior years combined. Unless colleges delay job training until the very end, signaling is practically the only explanation.”

The author genuinely can’t conceptualize that people who fail out in the fourth year might, on average, have learned less in the first three? The line “practically the only explanation” even calls out the flaw in the author’s own logic. Lol.

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