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Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

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Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#341

Post by Veelox »

root_axis wrote: post #211
tomohawk wrote: post #169

I wish them well, but having family members and friends work in unionized workplaces, it's not something I would ever do. It always seems to degenerate into an "us vs them" sort of thing whenever I talk to them about where they work. Why would I ever work some place where things are so adversarial? You also end up with this 3rd party involved in everything, creating all kinds of "rules" to make things "fair". Want to…

This is senior engineer privilege speaking. A union seems strictly worse when dozens of companies are falling over themselves to pay you in the 90th percentile income bracket.

I don't think spending years working hard to develop a skill set that is highly sought after counts as privilege...

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#342

Post by naravara »

Dig1t wrote: post #326
tomohawk wrote: post #169

I wish them well, but having family members and friends work in unionized workplaces, it's not something I would ever do. It always seems to degenerate into an "us vs them" sort of thing whenever I talk to them about where they work. Why would I ever work some place where things are so adversarial? You also end up with this 3rd party involved in everything, creating all kinds of "rules" to make things "fair". Want to…

Having worked in a unionized industry before, I completely agree with this. I was so confused and annoyed when I learned that I wasn't allowed to work at this place unless I consented to giving money from every paycheck to a group of people that basically never did anything for me, were impossible to get a hold of, and just generally complacent.

>I was so confused and annoyed when I learned that I wasn't allowed to work at this place unless I consented to giving money from every paycheck to a group of people that basically never did anything for me, were impossible to get a hold of, and just generally complacent.

Would you have preferred it if that money was never in your paycheck in the first place?

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#343

Post by zeveb »

kadendogthing wrote: post #131
msghacq wrote: post #48

"America’s political climate is changing; among other things, the 2016 presidential election brought up the issue of wealth inequality in this country and made people consider more closely the structural forces that define class here." What on earth does the 2016 election have to do with wealth inequality (or unions for that matter)? Inequality has been on the rise for decades and Clinton was also a member of the 1%.…

>What on earth does the 2016 election have to do with wealth inequality A guy who is objectively unqualified for every conceivable post had the opportunity to become elected as president of the U.S. merely because he was born wealthy. You might have heard the following term before: plutocracy

Of course, his opponent was objectively unqualified for every conceivable post but had the opportunity to be elected president of the U.S. merely because of her husband's name.

America's in a lot of trouble. 2020 is going to make 2016 look like Jefferson & Adams.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#344

Post by cpursley »

BrainInAJar wrote: post #303
root_axis wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is senior engineer privilege speaking. A union seems strictly worse when dozens of companies are falling over themselves to pay you in the 90th percentile income bracket.

The biggest lie capitalists ever told you was that unions were about money. They're about control. How's your open plan office? Do you like it? Can you do anything about it? Unions can help.

Or you can go work for a normal company that treats its employees well. There's plenty of them out there; it's a competitive market for good staff.

*Edit: I don't understand the downvotes. If you're in tech at the moment and somewhat competent, you can basically name your price and benefits.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#345

Post by soheil »

sethammons wrote: post #150
soheil wrote: post #77

kinda ironic, a platform that relies on a community of people and donors and leans on the socialist side of the spectrum is hit by a socialist leaning ideology.

That's not irony. Irony is when something happens that is explicitly not expected to happen.

I disagree, I think you're describing what a surprise is.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#346

Post by naravara »

monocasa wrote: post #327
fastball wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're a senior developer and you don't think you're getting paid a fair wage? Ok...

Why shouldn't he? The bigger valley companies got caught in a wage fixing scheme that by some estimates depressed wages by around 20% across the board, and all they did is send out a few checks for a few hundred to some of the employees. He's almost certainly not getting a fair market wage.

>Why shouldn't he? The bigger valley companies got caught in a wage fixing scheme that by some estimates depressed wages by around 20% across the board, and all they did is send out a few checks for a few hundred to some of the employees. >He's almost certainly not getting a fair market wage.

Bingo! Complaints like that sound like people getting mad at professional athletes for getting paid and asking for more. If they get less money it's not as if you, the fan, are going to see that in lower ticket prices or anything. That's just money that goes to management instead. Why are YOU mad about it?

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#347

Post by citilife »

magissima wrote: post #75
msghacq wrote: post #48

"America’s political climate is changing; among other things, the 2016 presidential election brought up the issue of wealth inequality in this country and made people consider more closely the structural forces that define class here." What on earth does the 2016 election have to do with wealth inequality (or unions for that matter)? Inequality has been on the rise for decades and Clinton was also a member of the 1%.…

They're probably mostly referring to Bernie Sanders, who ran a campaign very focused on wealth inequality. The union link is that when people become more aware of inequality and by extension class, they become more likely to participate in class-based politics and organizations such as unions, in theory at least.

The part I seem to be missing, is that most of the people working at Kickstarter are the top 2-5% of the U.S.. Their business caters to many people who want to start projects, who aren't living pay-check-to-pay-check anyway.

I don't really understand the purpose of the unionization effort, beyond the facade of just wanting to in some way "fit in" with a social movement.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#348

Post by JoeAltmaier »

zeveb wrote: post #343
kadendogthing wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What on earth does the 2016 election have to do with wealth inequality A guy who is objectively unqualified for every conceivable post had the opportunity to become elected as president of the U.S. merely because he was born wealthy. You might have heard the following term before: plutocracy

Of course, his opponent was objectively unqualified for every conceivable post but had the opportunity to be elected president of the U.S. merely because of her husband's name. America's in a lot of trouble. 2020 is going to make 2016 look like Jefferson & Adams.

That's palpably false. She was the single most qualified candidate for President, from a policy viewpoint, the nation has ever had. It was dismissive nonsense like that comment, that was her biggest obstacle.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#349

Post by nickpsecurity »

adamrezich wrote: post #236
enraged_camel wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>The idea that unions are universally good is just as silly as the idea that unions are universally bad. You are arguing against a strawman. No one is saying unions are "universally good". However, it is an irrefutable quality of capitalism that collective bargaining is superior to bargaining as an individual. If you truly understand how capitalism works, and the way it puts the interests of employers in conflict wi…

Okay so how did the Kroger union help my friend at all? Once again, membership was mandatory for employment, and a cut of each of his minimum-wage paychecks went to it, with him seeing zero benefit in exchange. Is there some hidden benefit both he and I (being his roommate at the time) just weren't seeing? (Trust me, we looked.)

"Okay so how did the Kroger union help my friend at all?"

Ive read their contract. The union negotiated great health/dental, paid vacations, time to sleep between shifts, no sit shifts for food workers, and most important: due process. At union companies like Kroger, they have to either prove you weren't doing what they said to fire you or laying you off cost something. The unions also act as private lawyer representing you during wrongful termination. Those two are all I need to hear to be pro-union in a capitalist system.

Now, lets consider Kroger. I boycotted the ones down here since their shelves stayed empty. Workers said they had no staff on purpose, cutting it aiming for bonuses. They also micro-manage a lot adding distractions further reducing profit. Did more cuts. Instead of increasing staff, they just blame workers threatening their jobs with some fired. Union and local workers told me all kinds of examples.

Currently, Kroger is trying to roll back some or all of health/dental and pension despite being more profitable than they were in tougher years. Union reps said they were fighting hard to keep them. On top of that, they intervened for a few management sacked as punishment for staffing-induced, performance problems. They still work there with some doing a lot better with newer set of managers they had no bad history with.

So, that's how unions help your friend at Kroger or other places if the union is good. If management did cuts and targeted them, the union would ensure they remained employed so long as they were doing whatever the company wanted them to do. They would also have benefits in a sector where many don't.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#350

Post by geofft »

sokoloff wrote: post #307
geofft wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a wide spectrum in "a union" just like in "management". I've had good management and bad management. There are good unions and bad unions. So, a priori, I don't have an expectation of whether "the union" - some arbitrarily picked union - will definitely help or hurt, any more than I have an expectation that arbitrary "management" will definitely help or hurt. But there are a few things: - Just like I evaluate…

> I have much more of a democratic voice in my union's priorities than my management's priorities. In my experience, the best ideas compete easily to change management priorities. I prefer that system over a straight democracy for changing management priorities.

"The best ideas" is a pretty unclear phrase. The ideas that make the individual lives of managers the best will win. That's usually strongly correlated with profit for the company (on purpose, using mechanisms like stock grants). Depending on how things are structured, it may or may not be correlated with long-term profit for the company. And it's very likely to be poorly correlated with long-term happiness of workers. As a worker, an idea that increases my long-term happiness is "better" than one that increases the company's profitability. But that same idea is unlikely to appear "best" from management's point of view. You can quantify the cost to the company (and thus to the personal payout of management) from giving all workers a raise of X% or an office with a door instead instead of an open-plan desk or increased PTO or whatever, and it's harder to quantify the benefit to profitability.

But in the end, the "best" ideas in the sense of the most profitable ones will still win, because companies with truly bad ideas from populism (e.g., "empty the company's cash reserves into end-of-year bonuses") will just not survive. Unions don't change the fact that companies themselves participate in a market.

And if you prefer that system, you and others who agree with you can absolutely participate in the market too and compete as part of your own business. You can choose not to join unionized companies. But I don't prefer that system. That's all.

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