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Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

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Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#271

Post by rexpop »

49531 wrote: post #219
edoo wrote: post #153

I've been in a union before. The work ethic wasn't good. They had seminars on how to work less and push back against complaints. They directed the members to engage in behavior that was best for the union while bad for the workers and the company. The union itself is a big business, what would they think of unionizing the union? Unions allow substandard work for equal pay. That tends to hold back the major opportunit…

> what would they think of unionizing the union Unions in the US are democratic institutions, so if there is a problem with your union you can change things.

To be fair, some are more democratic than others.

However, because the private firm is not legally, or practically democratic at all, it makes sense for those who love democracy (and themselves) to unionize, yes.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#272

Post by scotch_drinker »

Nikkau wrote: post #194
tomohawk wrote: post #169

I wish them well, but having family members and friends work in unionized workplaces, it's not something I would ever do. It always seems to degenerate into an "us vs them" sort of thing whenever I talk to them about where they work. Why would I ever work some place where things are so adversarial? You also end up with this 3rd party involved in everything, creating all kinds of "rules" to make things "fair". Want to…

> It always seems to degenerate into an "us vs them" That's the point, "us vs them" is pretty good upgrade from "me vs them"

I think this is important. The OP seems to think that management is totally open to just being fair and inclusive with individual employees but that the situation becomes too polarized when a union is implemented. This ignores the fact that it's in management's favor to keep people isolated and unaware of other employees issues.

No matter how great your workplace is, it's already us vs them whether you want to admit it or not. That's the nature of the beast.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#273

Post by scrumbledober »

root_axis wrote: post #211
tomohawk wrote: post #169

I wish them well, but having family members and friends work in unionized workplaces, it's not something I would ever do. It always seems to degenerate into an "us vs them" sort of thing whenever I talk to them about where they work. Why would I ever work some place where things are so adversarial? You also end up with this 3rd party involved in everything, creating all kinds of "rules" to make things "fair". Want to…

This is senior engineer privilege speaking. A union seems strictly worse when dozens of companies are falling over themselves to pay you in the 90th percentile income bracket.

I see no reason for any workforces at any of the companies I have worked for as a developer to unionize. In my short career before that, however, I thought it would be very helpful for the valet company I worked at to unionize.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#274

Post by walshemj »

bwestergard wrote: post #129
czbond wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two questions: Why are tech company staff wanting to unionize? For the most part, aren't tech staff reasonably to well paid - with good working conditions and moderate hour expectations (say 40-50)? Management has the right at a workplace to make any decisions, whether someone in non-management sees fit. Can't people who are frustrated with the company just go pursue a position elsewhere?

"You mentioned that the letter to management listed your grievances. Some people find the idea of a tech workers union implausible, because they find it hard to believe that tech workers could have grievances in the first place. After all, software engineers are relatively well paid. What’s your perspective on that?" "People didn’t even want that much more time off, or that much more time not on call. They just wante…

The key is "relatively"

In the uk its relatively well paid but much less than say a train driver is the average dev in London earns less than a train driver gets for a four day week an they have over time and a DB pension.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#275

Post by SilasX »

umvi wrote: post #235
navigatesol wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No union ever said "Wow, this new CEO and management are super fair and reasonable. We are no longer necessary, let's dissolve and let them take the reigns." What an odd point of view. Homicides are down; should we loosen the laws? If management are "fair and reasonable", what do they care if there's a union on premises? Everyone just goes about their business.

> What an odd point of view. Homicides are down; should we loosen the laws? Sure, why not? Why does additional overhead added to systems always need to be permanent? It's like installing Norton Anti Virus and then never being able to uninstall it ever again. Sometimes I think it would be okay to say: "Wow, aviation has been safe for 20 years since 9/11, maybe locked cockpits and increased public awareness are good en…

Earlier you were saying that the optimal move would be for the union to dissolve, and now you're comparing that to loosening air regs after they turn out to have overcorrected. That's moving the goalposts.

You should compare "dissolving the union" to "abolishing all air regs" or "easing up on union activism" to "loosening the more onerous regs".

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#276

Post by walshemj »

SilasX wrote: post #227
umvi wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or it's just a symptom of the Shirky Principle: "Institutions will try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution." Even if the workplace is not adversarial, any union will try to preserve the conditions that necessitate its continued existence. No union ever said "Wow, this new CEO and management are super fair and reasonable. We are no longer necessary, let's dissolve and let them take the reigns."

Dissolving would be an overreaction, but yes, I would expect a reasonable union leadership to say (in particular circumstances meriting it), "These are great benefits that are above market, and no one's getting cited or dismissed without cause, so we're just going to sit back for the time being and keep you all apprised if that changes."

Apart from things like progression, inflation, handling grievance cases.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#277

Post by lordnacho »

adamrezich wrote: post #236
enraged_camel wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>The idea that unions are universally good is just as silly as the idea that unions are universally bad. You are arguing against a strawman. No one is saying unions are "universally good". However, it is an irrefutable quality of capitalism that collective bargaining is superior to bargaining as an individual. If you truly understand how capitalism works, and the way it puts the interests of employers in conflict wi…

Okay so how did the Kroger union help my friend at all? Once again, membership was mandatory for employment, and a cut of each of his minimum-wage paychecks went to it, with him seeing zero benefit in exchange. Is there some hidden benefit both he and I (being his roommate at the time) just weren't seeing? (Trust me, we looked.)

This is a bit like being forced to buy health insurance and complaining when you don't get ill.

I'm not saying the deal was reasonable for your friend, I don't know the details or his life situation. But like security guards or insurers, unions aren't always in "active" mode.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#278

Post by [deleted] »

naravara wrote: post #239
mlillie wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you qualify US style vs non-US style unions? The prevalence of business unionism here?

One of the big problems in the US is that they're organized at the shop level and consituted to represent the interests of their present membership rather than the interests of the workers in the industry more broadly. This leads to some perverse, short-sighted incentives. For example the IBEW, which organizes electrical workers, decided to come out against the Green New Deal even though most of what the GND does wou…

[deleted]

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#279

Post by sokoloff »

rexpop wrote: post #257
umvi wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or it's just a symptom of the Shirky Principle: "Institutions will try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution." Even if the workplace is not adversarial, any union will try to preserve the conditions that necessitate its continued existence. No union ever said "Wow, this new CEO and management are super fair and reasonable. We are no longer necessary, let's dissolve and let them take the reigns."

Possibly because we've never yet had fair, and reasonable management.

In the history of the world, you don't think that's ever happened? I can think of quite a few places in tech and even a few in manufacturing which are fair and reasonable, IMO.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#280

Post by walshemj »

root_axis wrote: post #211
tomohawk wrote: post #169

I wish them well, but having family members and friends work in unionized workplaces, it's not something I would ever do. It always seems to degenerate into an "us vs them" sort of thing whenever I talk to them about where they work. Why would I ever work some place where things are so adversarial? You also end up with this 3rd party involved in everything, creating all kinds of "rules" to make things "fair". Want to…

This is senior engineer privilege speaking. A union seems strictly worse when dozens of companies are falling over themselves to pay you in the 90th percentile income bracket.

Have you been though a recession yet :-)
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