Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing • Hacker News Board

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#221

Post by crumpets » Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 8:00 PM UTC

asark wrote: post #137

chrisseaton wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Quit. Hope your skills are marketable. What do I do when there is an industry-wide closed-shop union, as some people seem to want?

What do you do when all the best-paying companies in your industry lobby for things you don't like, leaving you few, poor, options for employment? If we must solve this problem for unions, it's surely at least as important to solve it for companies. As for closed shop: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_shop#United_States It's illegal, so's the similar "union shop", and you can opt out such that you still pay dues b…

> "I'm being forced to support the only viable political party that wants to make anything whatsoever better"

Wow, I can tell you evaluate statements in an unbiased manner. What happens when you realize the idea of "better" turns out to depend on some pretty big assumptions that you no longer believe are true? Additionally, if the only two "viable" political parties are abhorrent like the ones in the US, giving any money to either of them is still morally fucked up if you truly disagree with them and vote 3rd party.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#222

Post by enraged_camel » Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 8:01 PM UTC

adamrezich wrote: post #202

normal_man wrote: post #188

The anti-union rhetoric in America is staggering. You like weekends? Then stop ragging on unions.

I have a friend who worked at a grocery store for a few months while waiting for his teacher's certification to get processed and sent to the state he'd moved to. It was a minimum-wage job, yet mandatory union membership at this grocery store chain meant that a cut of each of his minimum-wage paychecks was taken from him without anything he could do about it. The idea that unions are inherently, universally good is j…

>>The idea that unions are universally good is just as silly as the idea that unions are universally bad.

You are arguing against a strawman. No one is saying unions are "universally good". However, it is an irrefutable quality of capitalism that collective bargaining is superior to bargaining as an individual. If you truly understand how capitalism works, and the way it puts the interests of employers in conflict with those of employees (i.e. employers want to maximize profits, whereas employees want to maximize their pay and benefits, and this game is zero-sum), you will realize that, on average, having a union represent you will yield better results for you (and your fellow coworkers) than you representing just yourself.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#223

Post by bargl » Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 8:01 PM UTC

edoo wrote: post #153

I've been in a union before. The work ethic wasn't good. They had seminars on how to work less and push back against complaints. They directed the members to engage in behavior that was best for the union while bad for the workers and the company. The union itself is a big business, what would they think of unionizing the union? Unions allow substandard work for equal pay. That tends to hold back the major opportunit…

I think this means we need to re-think how unions work. It should be used to create fair workplaces.

My concern with the anti-union rhetoric in the USA is that we then turn to the government to protect workers. I think it's a lot better to have a union vs government as long as that union isn't protected from competition like they are today.

If we can introduce competition into unions then they might better serve the workers and the company.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#224

Post by minikites » Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 8:01 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #216

navigatesol wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It always seems to degenerate into an "us vs them" sort of thing whenever I talk to them about where they work. Why would I ever work some place where things are so adversarial? Have you considered that the adversarial workplace is the reason for unionizing in the first place?

Or it's just a symptom of the Shirky Principle: "Institutions will try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution." Even if the workplace is not adversarial, any union will try to preserve the conditions that necessitate its continued existence. No union ever said "Wow, this new CEO and management are super fair and reasonable. We are no longer necessary, let's dissolve and let them take the reigns."

>No union ever said "Wow, this new CEO and management are super fair and reasonable. We are no longer necessary, let's dissolve and let them take the reigns."

Name a company with a CEO and management who are super fair and reasonable (e.g. paying employees the full value of their labor instead of profiting from the surplus value created by the employee)

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#225

Post by navigatesol » Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 8:01 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #216

navigatesol wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It always seems to degenerate into an "us vs them" sort of thing whenever I talk to them about where they work. Why would I ever work some place where things are so adversarial? Have you considered that the adversarial workplace is the reason for unionizing in the first place?

Or it's just a symptom of the Shirky Principle: "Institutions will try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution." Even if the workplace is not adversarial, any union will try to preserve the conditions that necessitate its continued existence. No union ever said "Wow, this new CEO and management are super fair and reasonable. We are no longer necessary, let's dissolve and let them take the reigns."

>No union ever said "Wow, this new CEO and management are super fair and reasonable. We are no longer necessary, let's dissolve and let them take the reigns."

What an odd point of view. Homicides are down; should we loosen the laws? If management are "fair and reasonable", what do they care if there's a union on premises? Everyone just goes about their business.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#226

Post by 49531 » Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 8:03 PM UTC

joejerryronnie wrote: post #118

Well, there goes the high salaries, flexible working hours, and generous RSU grants for tech employees. Have fun fighting and scraping for 2% raises, paying exorbitant union fees for questionable benefits, and dealing with the nepotism and personal politics of your union leaders. And thanks in advance for adding to the unfunded pension liability crisis.

You know unionizing isn't something people do lightheartedly. A lot of planning and working goes into it, planning and working done by the folks who want to unionize. The idea that you only get benefits if you don't agitate your boss too much sounds pretty sad.

People don't join unions if they are going to be worse off materially.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#227

Post by SilasX » Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 8:03 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #216

navigatesol wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It always seems to degenerate into an "us vs them" sort of thing whenever I talk to them about where they work. Why would I ever work some place where things are so adversarial? Have you considered that the adversarial workplace is the reason for unionizing in the first place?

Or it's just a symptom of the Shirky Principle: "Institutions will try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution." Even if the workplace is not adversarial, any union will try to preserve the conditions that necessitate its continued existence. No union ever said "Wow, this new CEO and management are super fair and reasonable. We are no longer necessary, let's dissolve and let them take the reigns."

Dissolving would be an overreaction, but yes, I would expect a reasonable union leadership to say (in particular circumstances meriting it), "These are great benefits that are above market, and no one's getting cited or dismissed without cause, so we're just going to sit back for the time being and keep you all apprised if that changes."

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#228

Post by ticmasta » Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 8:03 PM UTC

minikites wrote: post #187

tomohawk wrote: post #169

I wish them well, but having family members and friends work in unionized workplaces, it's not something I would ever do. It always seems to degenerate into an "us vs them" sort of thing whenever I talk to them about where they work. Why would I ever work some place where things are so adversarial? You also end up with this 3rd party involved in everything, creating all kinds of "rules" to make things "fair". Want to…

>It always seems to degenerate into an "us vs them" sort of thing whenever I talk to them about where they work. Why would I ever work some place where things are so adversarial? Every workplace is adversarial, it's you versus the C-suite who profit from the surplus value created by your labor. A union just evens out the bargaining power between you and them.

>> A union just evens out the bargaining power between you and them.

What if you're better than the majority of "us". I can negotiate a better deal for myself than they can get or justify; now I subsidize the group for "the greater good".

This is not why unions where created. They were to address the monopoly of power when all employees could offer was their labour. This is definitely not the case in the western white-collar labour market.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#229

Post by moate » Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 8:04 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #216

navigatesol wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It always seems to degenerate into an "us vs them" sort of thing whenever I talk to them about where they work. Why would I ever work some place where things are so adversarial? Have you considered that the adversarial workplace is the reason for unionizing in the first place?

Or it's just a symptom of the Shirky Principle: "Institutions will try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution." Even if the workplace is not adversarial, any union will try to preserve the conditions that necessitate its continued existence. No union ever said "Wow, this new CEO and management are super fair and reasonable. We are no longer necessary, let's dissolve and let them take the reigns."

A CEO can be replaced. Management styles can change. Why would a union see a short term boon (good relations with management) as a reason to sacrifice long term goals (best working conditions for their members)?

Also, there's no such thing as a non-adversarial company that would require a union and vice versa. If you're building an employee-owned structure (or similar structure in which all stake holders are able to help sculpt company decisions), you don't need a union. And if you don't have employee ownership, you're not giving your employees a real seat at the table and thus don't represent their best interests.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#230

Post by ahelwer » Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 8:04 PM UTC

49531 wrote: post #212

tomohawk wrote: post #169

I wish them well, but having family members and friends work in unionized workplaces, it's not something I would ever do. It always seems to degenerate into an "us vs them" sort of thing whenever I talk to them about where they work. Why would I ever work some place where things are so adversarial? You also end up with this 3rd party involved in everything, creating all kinds of "rules" to make things "fair". Want to…

That weird "us vs them" sort of thing is called class consciousness. The adversarial nature exists whether you're conscious of it or not.

Exactly! Always be suspicious of calls for unity, many times they only serve to paper over divisions which should be addressed and will continue to exist regardless of whether discussion is silenced.

I liken this to undeveloped understandings of interpersonal relationships. One is given the impression early in life that all disagreements are bad and must be avoided. This can manifest in pathological conflict avoidance, ending in a blowup. Healthy relationships require explicit communication and prompt discussion of problems, which we can safely assume will inevitably occur.

The relationship between you and your employer is not one of family, and if you think of it that way you're setting yourself up for a rude awakening when the layoffs flow.