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Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

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Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#201

Post by atwebb »

StevePerkins wrote: post #159
praptak wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies in general are crappy at recognizing top contributors anyway. Tech companies are no exception.

Contributors in general are pretty crappy at recognizing top contributors. How many people in this thread honestly DON'T see themselves as a "top" contributor? Tech is like Lake Woebegone... all the kids are above average.

Please stop contributing to my impostor syndrome.

You're absolutely right though, it can be very difficult to have enough self knowledge and awareness to even place one's self sometimes.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#202

Post by adamrezich »

normal_man wrote: post #188

The anti-union rhetoric in America is staggering. You like weekends? Then stop ragging on unions.

I have a friend who worked at a grocery store for a few months while waiting for his teacher's certification to get processed and sent to the state he'd moved to. It was a minimum-wage job, yet mandatory union membership at this grocery store chain meant that a cut of each of his minimum-wage paychecks was taken from him without anything he could do about it.

The idea that unions are inherently, universally good is just as silly as the idea that unions are inherently, universally bad.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#203

Post by fabianhjr »

kazinator wrote: post #38
baby_wipe wrote: post #14

So if they succeed, does that mean nobody can work for Kickstarter unless they are part of the union?

Moreover, is a free software developer elsewhere in the world, supplying a free operating system, compiler, web server, ... to these workers considered a honorary member of the union?

Full members as long as they don't have the power to hire/fire others and keep profits from others work.

In the case of single-developer projects as single contractors, in the case of multi-developer projects as worker cooperatives or collectives.

Eg, https://www.iww.org/membership/3

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#204

Post by mises »

magissima wrote: post #140
chrisseaton wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Quit. Hope your skills are marketable. What do I do when there is an industry-wide closed-shop union, as some people seem to want?

In European countries where this is the model there are often several competing unions with different political affiliations.

So let's say the far-left carpenters union is the one to successfully negotiate with an employer. I belong to a centrist union. Now what? Do I go against my political and personal beliefs or do I suffer because of them?

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#205

Post by kgwgk »

geofft wrote: post #149
segmondy wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a popular opinion, but these are usually non CS types that have flooded the fields later due to money. Not very skilled, but very entitled. The sense of entitlement is very ridiculous these days. I see folks outside the Bay asking why shouldn't they get paid the same as Bay area folks, when they want to remote from somewhere that has 1/3rd the cost of living. Or people outside the country with 1/10th the cost of…

> I see folks outside the Bay asking why shouldn't they get paid the same as Bay area folks, when they want to remote from somewhere that has 1/3rd the cost of living. Well, why shouldn't they? It's not like the company magically has more money available when they hire a non-remote employee, is it?

Supply and demand? There are tens of millions of programmers in the world.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#206

Post by navigatesol »

burtonator wrote: post #184

The biggest challenge we have with unions is game-theoretic. Specifically, the issue of defection. The company can make it very easy for users to defect or FORCE them to defect. They can give bonuses to people not in the union (with plausible reasons for the bonuses so it's not illegal) or do what Walmart does and simply shut down the entire store in that location to prevent the union forming. We need some way to sol…

>We need some way to solve this problem ...

It's called solidarity, and respect for your co-workers.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#207

Post by wmil »

czbond wrote: post #71
bwestergard wrote: post #9

This is fantastic news. I'm one of the software engineers who was fired for organizing a union at a SF/DC based startup last year. The National Labor Relations Board found in our favor and we won a large cash settlement. But what we wanted was a union. Seeing others pick up the torch is extremely gratifying. Below are some links to news coverage of our case. https://gist.github.com/bwestergard/a77744dc6f3095fd3fb769d…

Two questions: Why are tech company staff wanting to unionize? For the most part, aren't tech staff reasonably to well paid - with good working conditions and moderate hour expectations (say 40-50)? Management has the right at a workplace to make any decisions, whether someone in non-management sees fit. Can't people who are frustrated with the company just go pursue a position elsewhere?

The official reason listed is to "promote our collective values: inclusion and solidarity, transparency and accountability; a seat at the table" and Kickstarter describes itself as a "Public-benefit corporation".

So it comes off as just the usual lefty political signalling, not the start of a real movement.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#208

Post by gamblor956 »

chrisseaton wrote: post #90
freshcatch_ wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way I heard it best explained is no one would try to start a union if it made them less money. Better pay and benefits - my maximum out of pocket was lower than most deductibles. Democratizes the workplace - really helps keep management in check. You get real job security - firing is much less arbitrary with a steward fighting for you. However, if people aren't active in union elections, bargaining etc. it can ge…

> The way I heard it best explained is no one would try to start a union if it made them less money. People could start a union so _they_ make more money, but _you_ could make less money. For example pay by seniority. Great for the senior people in the union, not so great for you.

Pay by seniority is a thing that developers keep bringing up and not understanding the basic concept that seniority-based pay is a decision that unions can adopt or reject.

Hollywood unions, for example, do not use a seniority-based pay scale.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#209

Post by naravara »

rb808 wrote: post #84
msghacq wrote: post #45

It will be interesting to see what this does for developer salaries at Kickstarter. If, as a top performer, I get penalized by joining the union then obviously Kickstarter looks less attractive to me. For unions in our industry to work they are going to have to be very explicit about how they are going to raise developer salaries.

Yeah but presumably with a union you can also take it easy, not worry about getting laid off and spend time on personal projects.

What about unions do you think magically makes it impossible to fire someone who isn't doing the required work? The only thing that changes is you have to actually do the requisite paperwork and monitoring to validate that you're firing them with cause instead of for arbitrary reasons and pretending it's with cause. The "we can't fire someone who is honestly slacking" is just as much a consequence of bad bookkeeping and administration from the management.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#210

Post by geofft »

WillPostForFood wrote: post #156
geofft wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a top performer: 1. I do my best work when my colleagues are also doing their best work. It doesn't matter how good I am at my job if I can't use the leverage of having teammates. I will be happier if the company can compensate all of my coworkers well and make them happy and hire good coworkers - both in terms of intrinsic motivation / happiness and in terms of whether the company is profitable enough to compensa…

You do best when your colleagues do the best, for sure. Do you think the union is going to help or hurt when you have underperforming or disruptive colleagues?

There's a wide spectrum in "a union" just like in "management". I've had good management and bad management. There are good unions and bad unions. So, a priori, I don't have an expectation of whether "the union" - some arbitrarily picked union - will definitely help or hurt, any more than I have an expectation that arbitrary "management" will definitely help or hurt. But there are a few things:

- Just like I evaluate management when finding a new job (in my most recent job hunt I quite explicitly asked my interviewers what they thought about their management and how they thought it differed from other places they've worked, and hearing poor answers from one famous company was a reason I turned them down), I can evaluate the union when finding a new job. If I don't think the union will force management to deal with brilliant assholes, or properly equip people for success who have aptitude but the wrong background, or acknowledge that poor management is the reason certain of my colleagues are underperforming, I won't join the company.

- I have much more of a democratic voice in my union's priorities than my management's priorities.

- Management often prioritizes their own needs as individual employees, and is willing to overlook failures or mistakes if it's in the interest of their own career paths. It's hard to crack down on people failing up into management if you yourself are a manager because you failed up.

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