US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021 • Hacker News Board

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#181

Post by repolfx » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 5:40 PM UTC

Findeton wrote: post #3

Simulacra wrote: post #2

This is in response to security concerns for some EU countries, so it's really just a political tit for tat. "The United States has been in a dispute with the EU's European Parliament and European Commission over visas for Bulgaria, Croatia, Poland, Romania and Cyprus. Travelers in those five countries are the only EU nations that the US requires to apply for a visa."

The EU is acting as a single political body, that's good. The US requires a visa for visiting from the EU, thus the EU requires the same to USA visitors.

It's not that good. Now travel for millions of Americans is becoming more of a hassle. This suits the political agenda of the EU because it wants all of Europe to be a single country run by itself and doesn't care about collateral damage along the way or even revels in it (look how big and powerful we are). But in the end it's still just making travel harder for people, despite all their rhetoric about how freedom of movement is one of their "four pillars".

There is no obligation for countries to always get bigger, or for countries to pretend there's no regional variations. ESTA is a pain and stupid and it gives me a worse impression of the USA every time I have to fill it out. There is no reason why the rest of the world should follow suit.

I see nobody else has said it yet, so I will - I hope that after Brexit the UK can drop this ETIAS nonsense and be more welcoming to Americans, even if they don't drop ESTA in response.

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#182

Post by TomVDB » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 5:43 PM UTC

erentz wrote: post #139

TomVDB wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replace “passport” by “driving license” and things are almost equivalent: a piece of paper that pins you down a particular plot of land.

You’re not getting the point. The USA is a single country. All of its citizens are to be treated equally. And all of its foreign affairs are handled by the one federal government. The EU is a very complicated collection of many individual countries that all have their own citizens, and all represent themselves individually in foreign affairs except where it’s convenient to represent themselves as a group. Free moveme…

Just having a passport for a particular country is not the single deciding factor to determine entry. There are already other requirements in many countries that have nothing to do with citizenship. (Think Yellow fever vaccincation in some Asian countries.)

There is absolutely nothing that would prevent Japan or the EU to impose additional differentiating factors to US citizens is deciding entry to their country.

“For safety reason, we require all visitors to have a valid driving license. We only recognize licenses from those states that have less than x driving related deaths per 100,000.”

Absurd from a policy point of view? Of course. Impossible from a legal point of view? Absolutely not.

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#183

Post by 420codebro » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 5:45 PM UTC

rmind wrote: post #60

zaroth wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tit for tat is a great model in pre-school. The more mature response is to investigate the underlying issues. Instead of putting your fingers in your ears and yelling “We are EU, you must treat us all the same” there could be some acknowledgement that travelers from those countries are disproportionately overstayers and there is a justifiable reason to need to more closely track them. If US travelers are overstaying…

Just a few points: - Tit-for-tat response is a geopolitical reality. Regardless whether you think it is pre-school model or not, this is what pretty much all countries do, as it is a perfectly rational way (and sometimes even the only way) to defend your interests. By rational I am talking about the Game Theory kind of rational. :) - You suggest to look at each EU country individually (just also keep in mind that the…

You are separate countries under a pseudo-Federalist system. Our states are not separate countries. Try keeping up, Hans.

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#184

Post by SllX » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 5:48 PM UTC

r00fus wrote: post #119

SllX wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hawaii isn’t a sovereign nation with its own foreign service.

It’s an analogy as Hawaii is one of the 50 United States. The EU Schengen zone is similar to the US as there is free travel between countries within the zone.

I know but it doesn’t work.

Every single EU member state is a sovereign nation with its own foreign policy, military, standing to sign treaties, seat in the UN General Assembly, international recognition beyond the UN, and a couple of them even have permanent seats in the Security Council. And most, but not all are parties to the Schengan Area, and most, but not all, are members of NATO. The ones that are not landlocked even get to set their own maritime boundaries, whereas past a certain point in the US, the maritime boundaries here are Federal territory. EU member states still maintain formal diplomatic relations among themselves and with other nations, and issue passports and visas. They might have standardized their passports, sure, but they are still issued by the member states.

Hawaii has none of that, it is a US State. Once you’re a US State, you don’t stop being one, ever, and we fought a civil war over this. That clearly isn’t the case with the EU, as demonstrated by Brexit.

In short, the analogy doesn’t work because it isn’t analogous. The EU wants to be treated like the US in some cases and like separate nations in other cases. The US is just the US as far as other nations have to be concerned, and there isn’t a Hawaiian or Californian or Texan passport that other nations can granularly accept or reject, just American ones.

If you want something more analogous to the Japanese hypothetically rejecting Hawaiians, it would be like the US allowing Visa-free entry from all of Germany except people from Brandenburg, or all of Australia except people from Victoria, or all of Japan except people from Okinawa. As far as the 4 EU States without Visa-free access to the US are concerned, they have normal diplomatic channels available to them.

EDIT: Edited for grammar and clarity. Sorry about that, quite a few interruptions in the last few minutes.

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#185

Post by johannes1234321 » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 5:48 PM UTC

erentz wrote: post #139

TomVDB wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replace “passport” by “driving license” and things are almost equivalent: a piece of paper that pins you down a particular plot of land.

You’re not getting the point. The USA is a single country. All of its citizens are to be treated equally. And all of its foreign affairs are handled by the one federal government. The EU is a very complicated collection of many individual countries that all have their own citizens, and all represent themselves individually in foreign affairs except where it’s convenient to represent themselves as a group. Free moveme…

> You’re not getting the point.

Mind that there is also this point: The individual EU-Schengen country doesn't give out visa for their own country. U.S. citizens can only get a Schengen Visa. Thus if the U.S. says "EU Member X requires Visa" country X can't enforce Visa itself the only way X can enforce Visa is by the EU enforcing Visa.

Also the EU is a solidarity agreement - EU member states pledged to stand in for each other at such situations. If EU doesn't uphold it's not fulfilling the promise it gave those countries, when they gave up some souvereignity.

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#186

Post by jdavis703 » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 5:54 PM UTC

rmind wrote: post #10

The article mixes two seaparate issues: - EU is introducing ETIAS, an electronic authorisation system which is pretty much modeled after the US ESTA system (used by visa-free nationals). It will apply to all countries which currently enjoy the visa-free regime with the EU and that includes USA. So, technically it is not a visa, but your details will be pre-checked and it will cost €7 (compared to $14 for US ESTA). Ir…

As a US citizen who travels to the Schengen area frequently, I also support these measures. Our world needs more open borders and more freedom of movement. I hope this puts pressure on the US government to implement visa policies that support freedom.

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#187

Post by Scoundreller » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 5:58 PM UTC

erentz wrote: post #167

Scoundreller wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh great. Tons of 2nd generation Canadians and Americans are Polish and Croat citizens by lineage. It’ll probably be illegal for them to apply for an ETIAS, and it’ll take a year to get a PL or HR passport.

Huh? I think you’re confused. A US citizen who happens to be of Croatian or Polish decent is still just a US citizen. If the EU does build a database of US citizens’ lineage and then starts denying US citizens of Croatian descent entry not only would that be hugely ironic it would also cause a pretty emphatic response from the US. There is only one US country and only one US citizen. The argument people are making co…

> Huh? I think you’re confused. A US citizen who happens to be of Croatian or Polish decent is still just a US citizen.

Many European countries automatically make people their citizens by lineage, not place of birth. Sometimes with little restriction by the paternal line.

Being born in the US to Croatian parents will make you a citizen of both countries, no application required.

Croatia may not know about it, but you'll still be doing something illegal if such a person applies for an ETIAS and answers "No" to the question about being an EU citizen (which will make you ineligible for an ETIAS).

It would be even messier for them if they were born in Croatia and then immigrated to the US as a child.

That's how the US and Canadian implementations work.

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#188

Post by patrickaljord » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 6:01 PM UTC

arkades wrote: post #131

aaomidi wrote: post #32

Americans are usually extremely lazy about this stuff. I wonder what the effects are going to be on Tourism in Europe.

It won't be a problem. It's not like Americans bring any tourist money to the EU.

Checking in from Paris, yes they do bring a lot of money.

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#189

Post by massivecali » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 6:02 PM UTC

guitarbill wrote: post #166

geggam wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rent a car. EU countries dont even treat each other equally. Stones in glass houses ? Territorial restrictions The vehicle selection can restrict travel to certain countries. For a description of these restrictions on admission, the countries are divided into three zones. Zone 1: Andorra, Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Gibraltar, Great Britain, Ireland, Italy, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Monaco,…

Sounds like this is a rental car/insurance issue, i.e. private corporation, not a free movement issue. Whether it's just or not is a different question, which would derail the thread.

It's not unlike renting a car in San Diego and not being allowed to take it into Mexico. The risk of theft is higher than the wish to deal with and the reality of successful prosecution/recovery is incredibly low. Rent a car in Germany and you are specifically told what countries you can't visit without higher rates or lower class of car.

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#190

Post by benj111 » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 6:03 PM UTC

ameister14 wrote: post #174

benj111 wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"potential new members that it did not have the opportunity to individually evaluate" Theres nothing stopping the US adding a state.

Sure, but if that occurs the state is now no longer an individual and can never leave. States in the US are not individually parties to any agreements with other countries, so the treaty would have no additional members. The same thing applies if belgium decides to conquer a few more miles of land. You can leave the EU, no state leaves the USA.

If a state wanted to leave the US it could. The US doesn't have an article 50, but if Texas declared independence, the rest of the US could choose to respect that. Of course the US could decide to send in the troops, but the EU could send the troops to the UK. There might be technical legal differences between the two examples, but at this level its more might is right and the winner writes the rules. Example The Ukraine.

Whether a leaving EU party would remain part of a treaty would depend on whether it was individually named. The UK for example is having to negotiate all trade deals anew as current ones are EU only.