Recruit Is Japan’s Top Contender for Global Internet Domination • Hacker News Board

Re: Recruit Is Japan’s Top Contender for Global Internet Domination

#91

Post by Ultramanoid » Sun, Feb 24, 2019, 2:57 PM UTC

ascar wrote: post #88

Ultramanoid wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am on my own ( which is not easy in Japan ) but many of my closest friends are manager-level engineers in big companies ( NTT, etc ) and rarely earn more than 5-7 million yen a year. This is with teams of dozens of people under them for which they are responsible. Reading your post is quite shocking for me.

Are you sure your friends disclose their actual salary? Or might they be underselling themselves to meet expectations and not disturb 和 (Wa)? Would be a very Japanese thing to do, wouldn't it?

It would, which is why I wrote "closest". Normally we do not discuss salaries. My wife was in charge of hiring in a big company as well and we're aware of where things are. But then, we're "average" people. As another comment points out, 6 million is the average salary, with which I agree. I do not agree 6-7 is not a good salary in Tokyo, as others also have said, 7 is pretty good money. Average of 6 means lots, and that's lots, of people earning less.

Re: Recruit Is Japan’s Top Contender for Global Internet Domination

#92

Post by Ultramanoid » Sun, Feb 24, 2019, 2:59 PM UTC

cdavid wrote: post #82

Ultramanoid wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am on my own ( which is not easy in Japan ) but many of my closest friends are manager-level engineers in big companies ( NTT, etc ) and rarely earn more than 5-7 million yen a year. This is with teams of dozens of people under them for which they are responsible. Reading your post is quite shocking for me.

I don't know about NTT, but 5-6 millions JPY for manager-level roles in general is terrible, even outside Tokyo. W/ decent engineering skills, you should be able to get at least the double after enough experience in Tokyo. If you want to check your market value, you may want to talk to a recruiter (a quite scammy business in Japan, but a good way to check your market value).

You seem to be in a higher 'middle-class' level than us. We don't see these numbers you mention. My wife was a recruiter for a few years herself.

Edit : And those 5-7 millions I mentioned often come with 10-to-14-hour workdays, by the way, plus Saturday on the laptop all day connected to work. I really wish reality was as you describe it. It is one of the reasons I'm freelance. I don't have the stamina for corporate Japan.

Re: Recruit Is Japan’s Top Contender for Global Internet Domination

#93

Post by ascar » Sun, Feb 24, 2019, 3:04 PM UTC

Ultramanoid wrote: post #89

ascar wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope I'm not annoying you with my replies. I'm enjoying the friendly discussion. > To your point of foreign food in Japan, I find it to be of better quality than foreign food in Europe. That's mostly an illusion based on your expectation bias. Foreign food in Europe as well as in Japan is made to mostly cater for the local population. Pizza in Japan is twice the price and half the taste of most Pizza in Germany (in…

Well, this has gone off-topic quickly, but I certainly appreciate the notes comparing living standards and cultural differences. Whatever that may have to do with Recruit taking over the world, which I don't think is likely to happen at at all. Certainly food talk is tricky, as it can be extremely subjective. If you haven't yet, I recommend trying the local okonomiyaki in Hiroshima, cooked in front of you. The Hirosh…

Ah from my experience on HN derailing topics is acceptable as long as it stays constructive and new things are said. Also no one is forced to read a thread that already starts at ~3 levels deep, if he doesn't like the topic. It's really easy to just collapse that. I often really enjoy some threads that have derailed heavily, but tell me knew interesting things in a well written way.

I have seen the peace memorial. The children memorial close by left the most lasting impression. Ringing the peace bell was also a very special moment.

I only had Okonomiyaki in Osaka. Not cooked in front of me, but served on a hot plate built into the table and finished at the table with what I think was mayonnaise and dried tuna. It was good, but I will have no chance to visit Hiroshima again to compare.

Re: Recruit Is Japan’s Top Contender for Global Internet Domination

#94

Post by Ultramanoid » Sun, Feb 24, 2019, 3:23 PM UTC

ascar wrote: post #86

Ultramanoid wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You might be correct though that you have less reason in Tokyo to go to the city center compared to a German city, e.g. for work, entertainment and night-live. This is the misunderstanding most foreigners fall into. There is no Tokyo City, there hasn't been for decades. You're travelling between cities, in Tokyo Metropolis, which is vast, think of it as a prefecture if that helps, since administratively speaking is…

I hope I'm not annoying you with my replies. I'm enjoying the friendly discussion. > To your point of foreign food in Japan, I find it to be of better quality than foreign food in Europe. That's mostly an illusion based on your expectation bias. Foreign food in Europe as well as in Japan is made to mostly cater for the local population. Pizza in Japan is twice the price and half the taste of most Pizza in Germany (in…

Regarding water, I started drinking it bottled during the Fukushima accident in 2011, when in Katsushika City ( East of Tokyo ) they recommended not to give tap water to babies or young children for a few days when radiation readings briefly spiked. It took a few hours for bottled water to disappear that day... That one was scary.

Related, right now :

http://focustaiwan.tw/news/asoc/201902230008.aspx

Re: Recruit Is Japan’s Top Contender for Global Internet Domination

#95

Post by Ultramanoid » Sun, Feb 24, 2019, 4:30 PM UTC

ascar wrote: post #79

Ultramanoid wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comparison you come up with makes sense if you consider Tokyo a city, which it is not, it is a bunch of cities, some quite large on their own, from the 23 central "wards" to another couple dozen outer ones, etc. And in a very specific circumstance in your example, needing to be close to Tokyo Station. It is not comparable to a European capital like Munich. If you live and work in Edogawa City, or Katsushika, or N…

> If you live and work in Edogawa City, or Katsushika, or Nerima I only used the data I found in the referenced article. I used the "budget" option that is "located outiside central Tokyo and about a 30- to 45-min train ride to a major Tokyo station." Edogawa city is even closer than that estimation (about 25minutes to Toyko station and less than 20 minutes to a major station). So if the numbers in the article are co…

I'm having a little trouble following and replying the comments on multiple levels. Been a reader of HN for a couple of years, but a contributing user for only a few days.

> This results in the funny situation that for me eating out at cheap shops in Japan is maybe 20-30% more expensive than cooking for myself, while in Germany eating out at cheap shops is 2 to 4 times more expensive than cooking for myself. In the end I can manage with ~900en per day in Germany, but have to cook myself 6 times a week, while I spend 1500en per day in Japan and eat out 7 days a week.

I think the above explains most of my shock with food prices in Europe. Number 1, eating out is so much more expensive that it is ridiculous. And 2, I am used to all kinds of bento and so-called prepared meals in supermarkets in Japan, that simply do not exist in the West. I can buy ingredients in a Western supermarket and cook myself, or I can eat out, but I have no middle ( and for me the usual ) option to eat a cheap, but delicious and already prepared bento or similar meal.

But there's one more thing related to the above. All these fresh, short-lived meals in supermarkets and shops in Japan, start to get discounts in the afternoon, anywhere from 10% all the way to 70% as they get close to shutting down the store, because it's food that will be thrown away after that. ( Yes, it's a great and serious food waste issue. )

This system does not exist in the West. We've saved incredible amounts of money on high quality food going to shop at supermarkets and food stalls as late as possible over the years. A few of my favourite shops I have never been to before 19:00, ever ! Why pay 3,000 JPY for a sushi tray made at 7 AM and bought at 10 AM, when I can pay 1,200 JPY at 20:00 for the same sushi tray that was prepared at 18:00 and they will throw away at 21:00 ?

I would say when alone, I'm hovering myself between 1,400 and 1,800 yen daily for food, and very rarely cooking, because for one thing, I'd end up making the same exact food I buy ( or more appropriately, I should say the same meal ) and won't be as tasty, plus it'll take a time shopping and cooking that it's simply not worth the few extra hundred yen. Even 'junk food' ( by which I mean something like wakame onigiri or negitoro for instance ) is relatively healthy and dirt cheap. I wouldn't even know what to do with a 15 million yen salary, honestly. Crazy money.

Re: Recruit Is Japan’s Top Contender for Global Internet Domination

#96

Post by threatofrain » Sun, Feb 24, 2019, 4:32 PM UTC

fiblye wrote: post #68

speedplane wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> His problem is that he thinks they're strange for not just offering more money I don't think he thinks they're strange, he's just surprised. When you visit France and can buy high quality wine for half the cost that you get in the U.S., it's surprising. When you go to Singapore and see that housing can often be more expensive than luxury apartments in NYC, it's surprising. Similarly, when you go to Japan and see pe…

It’s really not that programmers are more “valued” and everyone who isn’t paying them enough money to buy a new house yearly isn’t properly appreciating them. It’s that one country can afford to pay more, and it’s partly enabled by a massive wealth disparity. Being surprised is strange. It’s like being surprised that people get paid less in Poland and that companies won’t pay as much for a programmer there. Nobody ha…

For the same reason that China is trouncing Taiwan in tech hiring, you need to beat your competitors. What's reasonable to give to someone else to make them do what you want depends on what your competitors do.

Framing it as "think of what another Japanese person would be making" is all wrong. We can say the exact same thing about Taiwan, and we surely wouldn't say the way for Taiwan to move forward is to tell candidates, "You just don't understand Taiwan. It has a very different way of life." Those candidates will understand Chinese money, the same way this person understood American money.

Re: Recruit Is Japan’s Top Contender for Global Internet Domination

#97

Post by chillacy » Sun, Feb 24, 2019, 6:59 PM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #36

chillacy wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why be an entrepreneur when there’s so much social glory in being a salaryman?

There is no glory in being in salaryman. I'm not sure where you heard that but salaryman has almost always been a derogatory term.

This was posted awhile back, is this inaccurate? https://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan...

Re: Recruit Is Japan’s Top Contender for Global Internet Domination

#98

Post by cdavid » Sun, Feb 24, 2019, 10:36 PM UTC

Ultramanoid wrote: post #92

cdavid wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about NTT, but 5-6 millions JPY for manager-level roles in general is terrible, even outside Tokyo. W/ decent engineering skills, you should be able to get at least the double after enough experience in Tokyo. If you want to check your market value, you may want to talk to a recruiter (a quite scammy business in Japan, but a good way to check your market value).

You seem to be in a higher 'middle-class' level than us. We don't see these numbers you mention. My wife was a recruiter for a few years herself. Edit : And those 5-7 millions I mentioned often come with 10-to-14-hour workdays, by the way, plus Saturday on the laptop all day connected to work. I really wish reality was as you describe it. It is one of the reasons I'm freelance. I don't have the stamina for corporate…

I am aware of the dread of the corporate life in large Japanese companies, and that many pay really badly. The numbers I have quoted are from people who worked in well known Japanese companies (Canon, Nintendo, etc.) and non Japanese (Pivotal).

They could be anectodal, but they often match what I see in salary surveys such as https://www.robertwalters.co.jp/content/dam/robert-walters/c....

Re: Recruit Is Japan’s Top Contender for Global Internet Domination

#99

Post by VRay » Sun, Feb 24, 2019, 10:46 PM UTC

fiblye wrote: post #61

VRay wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha, it's true, man. I recently moved to Japan to live with family for a while. I interviewed at the top Japanese software companies in Japan, and even though I'm a senior engineer with 10 years' experience in FAANG in the USA, they felt like they were doing me a favor offering me 15 million JPY/year (150k USD at 100 yen per dollar, ~$130k USD at the time with the beefy US dollar). Tokyo is actually a little cheaper…

Sometimes I think the HN community is vastly out of touch with normal everyday humans, and comments like this validate it. If you're making 7 million yen a year, you're making really fucking good money . If you're making 10 million, that company is really kissing your ass and you're essentially royalty. But 15 million is low? Keep in mind that GDP per capita in Japan is only about 2/3 of America's, and also that the…

If you pay $130k a year or less, you can't recruit engineers with the talent to compete with the US companies

Just check out top Japanese software offerings and compare them to their American equivalents and you'll see what I mean

Mixi, Rakuten, LINE, Recruit, etc.

Re: Recruit Is Japan’s Top Contender for Global Internet Domination

#100

Post by VRay » Mon, Feb 25, 2019, 1:20 AM UTC

Ultramanoid wrote: post #58

rurounijones wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

15 million JPY/year is a huge salary in Japan, even in Tokyo. I think your salary expectations have been skewed by your employment history.

Indeed it is. I could take quite a few years off with a yearly salary like that, as you say, even in Tokyo.

Comeon dude, don't settle for 10M JPY if you have enough technical competence to follow HackerNews

Go work in Silicon Valley for two years at 35M JPY/year, then come back to Japan and spend 8 years making games (or just playing them!)

Japan's software industry is toast, no point in investing even one second of your valuable time trying to prop it up. Even their home-grown businesses that fully understand all the intricacies of the local market are barely holding their own against the tendrils of US-based competitors, and they're never going to get any traction outside of Japan.