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Recruit Is Japan’s Top Contender for Global Internet Domination

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Re: Recruit Is Japan’s Top Contender for Global Internet Domination

#71
post #61
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha, it's true, man. I recently moved to Japan to live with family for a while. I interviewed at the top Japanese software companies in Japan, and even though I'm a senior engineer with 10 years' experience in FAANG in the USA, they felt like they were doing me a favor offering me 15 million JPY/year (150k USD at 100 yen per dollar, ~$130k USD at the time with the beefy US dollar). Tokyo is actually a little cheaper…

Sometimes I think the HN community is vastly out of touch with normal everyday humans, and comments like this validate it. If you're making 7 million yen a year, you're making really fucking good money . If you're making 10 million, that company is really kissing your ass and you're essentially royalty. But 15 million is low? Keep in mind that GDP per capita in Japan is only about 2/3 of America's, and also that the…

> But 15 million is low?

It's low relatively speaking to what that person can get in the US. When you are on the global market, you can compare between countries. On top of that devs are quite underpaid in Japan especially at the beginning of their careers, it's not an outlandish claim.

Re: Recruit Is Japan’s Top Contender for Global Internet Domination

#72
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha, it's true, man. I recently moved to Japan to live with family for a while. I interviewed at the top Japanese software companies in Japan, and even though I'm a senior engineer with 10 years' experience in FAANG in the USA, they felt like they were doing me a favor offering me 15 million JPY/year (150k USD at 100 yen per dollar, ~$130k USD at the time with the beefy US dollar). Tokyo is actually a little cheaper…

I am on my own ( which is not easy in Japan ) but many of my closest friends are manager-level engineers in big companies ( NTT, etc ) and rarely earn more than 5-7 million yen a year. This is with teams of dozens of people under them for which they are responsible. Reading your post is quite shocking for me.

Don't forget that in Japan there's not just the salary you have to account for. Many domestic companies pay for your accommodation (with it something worth at least 1.5 Million a year in most places), plus several other perks (rebates on certain services, additional medical insurance, etc...). So just looking at the salary does not tell the whole story.

Re: Recruit Is Japan’s Top Contender for Global Internet Domination

#73
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha, it's true, man. I recently moved to Japan to live with family for a while. I interviewed at the top Japanese software companies in Japan, and even though I'm a senior engineer with 10 years' experience in FAANG in the USA, they felt like they were doing me a favor offering me 15 million JPY/year (150k USD at 100 yen per dollar, ~$130k USD at the time with the beefy US dollar). Tokyo is actually a little cheaper…

They should recruit from places other than the US. Engineers with as much ability and experience as you can be hired for far less from other Western nations.

In many IT departments in Japan (at least in foreign companies based in Japan) you will see a lot of Indians, so it's already happening.

Re: Recruit Is Japan’s Top Contender for Global Internet Domination

#74
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am on my own ( which is not easy in Japan ) but many of my closest friends are manager-level engineers in big companies ( NTT, etc ) and rarely earn more than 5-7 million yen a year. This is with teams of dozens of people under them for which they are responsible. Reading your post is quite shocking for me.

Don't forget that in Japan there's not just the salary you have to account for. Many domestic companies pay for your accommodation (with it something worth at least 1.5 Million a year in most places), plus several other perks (rebates on certain services, additional medical insurance, etc...). So just looking at the salary does not tell the whole story.

While I know that to be so, none of my friends or relatives live or have lived in company housing. It's something we see in dramas, basically. NTT has provided first rate health care that you couldn't equal no matter what you paid for it on your own, though.

Re: Recruit Is Japan’s Top Contender for Global Internet Domination

#75
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but I shudder at the comparison between our living standards and the other so-called developed nations on every trip overseas or to Europe. And more so now than I did 20 years ago. What do you mean by that? That the living standards in Japan became comparably higher? I can only speak about the comparison to Germany, but the only thing that comes to mind are japanese toilets. Other than that they are pretty similar…

I don't dispute any comparison with Germany in particular as I have been there only for brief periods, and not for at least a decade. But I just can't see any country I've visited or lived in, whether in Western Europe or North America, getting anywhere close to the combined levels of public safety, quality affordable healthcare, excellent ubiquitous transportation, education, technology, extremely reasonable cost of…

From my personal experience in the last five months in Japan, I mostly agree with you. By your metrics Germany is probably on par and a few other countries lack the economic power and/or the political will (e.g. the US could afford all that, but chooses not to).

> education

The general education seems to be good apart from the tendency of karoshi, already beginning with stuff like prep-schools. But as has been noted in the comments here (also by me) the English education really lacks behind. Surprisingly, I personally met more elderly with conversational English skills than students at one of the imperial universities.

> extremely reasonable cost of living (much as foreigners keep falsely claiming Tokyo is expensive.. )

Toyko is expensive. It's not a false claim. Yes it's affordable and the rent might be reasonable, if you lower your standards to accomodate for that. The average living space per person in Japan is 22.3m² and below 20m² in big cities [1]. In contrast to that the average living space per person in Germany is 43.8m². Nearly twice as much. On the other hand a 15m² flat 30min away from Toyko station costs about 45000 Yen per month [3]. That's 3000 Yen or 24€ per m². A 1-2 person flat 20min from Munich center (one of the most, if not the most, expensive city by rent in Germany) costs ~15€ per m². So I'm living closer and get 60% more space for the same money. Now consider that foreigners expect more space (see [1] vs [2]) and Toyko really is expensive for foreigners.

[1] https://resources.realestate.co.jp/living/how-much-living-sp...

[2] https://www.destatis.de/EN/FactsFigures/SocietyState/IncomeC...

[3] https://resources.realestate.co.jp/living/cost-living-single...

Re: Recruit Is Japan’s Top Contender for Global Internet Domination

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

15 million JPY/year is a lot of money. If the wages in America are really that high, Japan has trouble recruiting top talent from America, that's for sure. It might be that the Japanese companies aren't lean enough to able to afford wages like that. Btw. another data point: I am a junior software engineer in Tokyo and I currently earn a bit over 6 million. I'm able to live very comfortably with that. I'm aiming for 8…

Me and my family are living very comfortably with less than that, honestly. And I don't expect any noticeable increase in earnings at this point in our lives. I don't personally know and never have in these past few decades anyone earning more than 10 million yen. Maybe if we go back to the 80s.

The only one earning more than 10M who I know of is a senpai of mine who quit and got a remote Silicon Valley job. It’s a lucrative deal as you can live affordably in Tokyo. (Still, I suspect they’d pay remote workers somewhat worse...) As for myself, I wouldn’t move for 15M. The present-day U.S. sounds a great place to earn money as a SE, but it doesn’t sound like a good place to live.

Re: Recruit Is Japan’s Top Contender for Global Internet Domination

#77
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree wholeheartedly with the closing part, and things are much different and insular than 30 or 20 years ago, I do not necessarily think this affects Japan economically seriously. We've been hearing about the coming collapse of this or that in Japan and the aging Japanese society apocalypse consistently, but I shudder at the comparison between our living standards and the other so-called developed nations on…

Living standards in Japan? You mean the minuscule apartments? The notoriously bad heating system (lack of isolation)? Overpriced food in general in supermarkets (with products made using 10x the levels of pesticides/fertilizers compared to other countries)? The fact that Japan rejected nuclear and now used coal and petrol to power its electrical grid (hence aerial pollution)? Don't get me wrong, there are positive as…

With the exception of the ( usual, but not everywhere ) bad isolation, I can't quite agree at all. Maybe we don't go to the same supermarkets. I'm baffled by how expensive food is in Europe when I can buy the same products for less in Tokyo despite being imported ( Italian olive oil for instance ) and even niche ( the organic kind ) so there you go.

Agreed they compensated the closing of nuclear plants with coal and gas, as I already pointed out myself in another thread. But I'll take Tokyo's air any day over that of a European capital. Have you seen the grey mushrooms over them ? It's a world of cars and smog, not of trains.

Madrid, Paris, Milan :

https://ep01.epimg.net/politica/imagenes/2016/12/28/actualid...

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1407323/thumbs/o-EUROPE-SMOG-faceb...

http://i.cbc.ca/1.3383314.1451440205!/cpImage/httpImage/imag...

Not to mention the fact that in many Western capitals you literally walk on garbage.

Re: Recruit Is Japan’s Top Contender for Global Internet Domination

#78
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't dispute any comparison with Germany in particular as I have been there only for brief periods, and not for at least a decade. But I just can't see any country I've visited or lived in, whether in Western Europe or North America, getting anywhere close to the combined levels of public safety, quality affordable healthcare, excellent ubiquitous transportation, education, technology, extremely reasonable cost of…

From my personal experience in the last five months in Japan, I mostly agree with you. By your metrics Germany is probably on par and a few other countries lack the economic power and/or the political will (e.g. the US could afford all that, but chooses not to). > education The general education seems to be good apart from the tendency of karoshi, already beginning with stuff like prep-schools. But as has been noted…

The comparison you come up with makes sense if you consider Tokyo a city, which it is not, it is a bunch of cities, some quite large on their own, from the 23 central "wards" to another couple dozen outer ones, etc. And in a very specific circumstance in your example, needing to be close to Tokyo Station. It is not comparable to a European capital like Munich.

If you live and work in Edogawa City, or Katsushika, or Nerima, it all falls down quickly and becomes quite cheaper. And why wouldn't you ? You don't go to get your birth certificate at Tokyo Metropolitan Government, you go to Nerima City Hall. The scales in your example don't match.

Same as if going the opposite way, say you live in Edogawa but need to go to work every morning to Akiruno and back to Edogawa. It's all Tokyo, but then commute gets crazy expensive and you can argue that way too.

Edit : And I haven't seen the variety and prices eating out anywhere else either. See if you can get a salaryman to take you around on a tour of not-so-secret 500en per meal shops.

Edit 2 : Regarding rent, I've always argued it's all in searching long and hard, which most foreigners have no time ( or interest ) in doing. The market is there. Heck, many towns are giving whole houses basically for free if you fix them, because it's cheaper for them than the cost of demolition and also fights depopulation in some areas -- yes, even in Tokyo. There are problems specific to renting to foreigners and the lack of anti-discrimination laws, but other than that, it's fine.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18548742

Re: Recruit Is Japan’s Top Contender for Global Internet Domination

#79
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my personal experience in the last five months in Japan, I mostly agree with you. By your metrics Germany is probably on par and a few other countries lack the economic power and/or the political will (e.g. the US could afford all that, but chooses not to). > education The general education seems to be good apart from the tendency of karoshi, already beginning with stuff like prep-schools. But as has been noted…

The comparison you come up with makes sense if you consider Tokyo a city, which it is not, it is a bunch of cities, some quite large on their own, from the 23 central "wards" to another couple dozen outer ones, etc. And in a very specific circumstance in your example, needing to be close to Tokyo Station. It is not comparable to a European capital like Munich. If you live and work in Edogawa City, or Katsushika, or N…

> If you live and work in Edogawa City, or Katsushika, or Nerima

I only used the data I found in the referenced article. I used the "budget" option that is "located outiside central Tokyo and about a 30- to 45-min train ride to a major Tokyo station." Edogawa city is even closer than that estimation (about 25minutes to Toyko station and less than 20 minutes to a major station). So if the numbers in the article are correct, the 45000en example I cited would be more fitting to something like Funabashi. For the places you mentioned the article claims 70000en/20m², so 3500en instead of 3000en per m².

You might be correct though that you have less reason in Tokyo to go to the city center compared to a German city, e.g. for work, entertainment and night-live.

Edit: Your abandoned houses example is very interesting though. I also had the feeling owning property a bit outside of the centers isn't that hard/expensive here. Especially as the houses are rather simple wood constructions.

> And I haven't seen the variety and prices eating out anywhere else either. See if you can get a salaryman to take you around on a tour of not-so-secret 500en per meal shops.

Oh yes. Food prices were one of the most surprising differences for me. Eating out can be surprisingly cheap in Japan (e.g. at these 500en shops or supermarket excellent bento area). It's amazing. In fact I haven't cooked a single time for myself while being here. On the other hand, prices in supermarkets are way more expensive than in Germany. I pay 50% to 100% extra compared to prices at Aldi or Lidl in Germany. Especially fruits (and anything fruit related), Jogurt (granted, not really a domestic product), bottled water and drinks in general. Even rice is about 100% more expensive (about 120en/kg for the cheap one in German supermarkets)!

This results in the funny situation that for me eating out at cheap shops in Japan is maybe 20-30% more expensive than cooking for myself, while in Germany eating out at cheap shops is 2 to 4 times more expensive than cooking for myself. In the end I can manage with ~900en per day in Germany, but have to cook myself 6 times a week, while I spend 1500en per day in Japan and eat out 7 days a week.

Edit2: Eating out foreign food in Japan (e.g. pizza) is extremely expensive though. While eating international cousine in Germany (including a lot of available Japanese sushi and Ramen restaurants) has absolutely no price difference to the domestic restaurants. Actually Chinese, Italian and Burgers are regularly cheaper than German restaurants.

Edit3: Bottled water is also an interesting one. The cheapest bottled water in Japan is about 8 times more expensive than the cheapest one in Germany. Yes the tap water has a good quality and is drinkable, but I'm a "water snob" and can't stand even a slight taste of chlorine and some other usual suspects. The only tap water I found acceptable was in Nagano.

That's what I mean with some countries being better in one area, while the others are better in another area. It's not that easily comparable and your expectations in another country are heavily influenced from what you are used at your home country.

Re: Recruit Is Japan’s Top Contender for Global Internet Domination

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

15 million JPY/year is a lot of money. If the wages in America are really that high, Japan has trouble recruiting top talent from America, that's for sure. It might be that the Japanese companies aren't lean enough to able to afford wages like that. Btw. another data point: I am a junior software engineer in Tokyo and I currently earn a bit over 6 million. I'm able to live very comfortably with that. I'm aiming for 8…

Me and my family are living very comfortably with less than that, honestly. And I don't expect any noticeable increase in earnings at this point in our lives. I don't personally know and never have in these past few decades anyone earning more than 10 million yen. Maybe if we go back to the 80s.

If you have a good resume and can justify good software engineering skills in demand, it is not that difficult to get to 10 millions JPY or more, even outside the big foreign companies (Google, Nvidia, etc.). Indeed in Tokyo starts paying 9-10 millions JPY for people w/ 2-3 years experience after college.

I know people working in large Japanese companies with 15 years+ experience can make 15-20 millions JPY once they become principal and co.

It is true that Japan, like Europe, pays much more people willing to go management/product management/sales, compared to the US where you can stay on a technical path and make very good money, at least up to a certain age.

But please do not think that 6-7 millions JPY is good salary in Tokyo: it is not. The average salary in Japan is a bit below 6 millions JPY.

Source: I have lived in Japan for 7 years total, have been managing multiple software engineer teams and done the hiring in multiple roles.

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