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Chevy Volt discontinued: Chevrolet's last Volt rolls off the assembly line

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Re: Chevy Volt discontinued: Chevrolet's last Volt rolls off the assembly line

#161

Post by zelos »

jdietrich wrote: post #79
bit_logic wrote: post #54

This was really shortsighted. PHEV is currently the best technology. I think the push for full EV is premature for mass market. It works for niche cases like Tesla, but not something that can be truly mainstream. With current battery tech and infrastructure, EV is a 50 mile technology. It has nothing to do with battery tech itself, doesn't matter how light or dense the battery is. The limit is infrastructure. 50 mile…

>With current battery tech and infrastructure, EV is a 50 mile technology. It has nothing to do with battery tech itself, doesn't matter how light or dense the battery is. The limit is infrastructure. 50 miles is about what you can charge with a level 1 charger overnight. The vast majority of first-time EV buyers also install a 240v charging station, which typically costs about $1200 including labour and will fully c…

> Most ICE car owners only infrequently take long journeys.

Sure, but when I do take a longer journey, I don't want to have to hire a car or something. I can see an EV currently being good for 90% of my journeys, but what about the ~8 journeys a year in the ~200 mile range, with the last 30 or so generally on steep/winding roads trying to find a cottage in the middle of nowhere? How practical is that currently?

Edit: making the numbers a bit more realistic

Re: Chevy Volt discontinued: Chevrolet's last Volt rolls off the assembly line

#162

Post by speedplane »

zelos wrote: post #161
jdietrich wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>With current battery tech and infrastructure, EV is a 50 mile technology. It has nothing to do with battery tech itself, doesn't matter how light or dense the battery is. The limit is infrastructure. 50 miles is about what you can charge with a level 1 charger overnight. The vast majority of first-time EV buyers also install a 240v charging station, which typically costs about $1200 including labour and will fully c…

> Most ICE car owners only infrequently take long journeys. Sure, but when I do take a longer journey, I don't want to have to hire a car or something. I can see an EV currently being good for 90% of my journeys, but what about the ~8 journeys a year in the ~200 mile range, with the last 30 or so generally on steep/winding roads trying to find a cottage in the middle of nowhere? How practical is that currently? Edit:…

> How practical is that currently?

It's not, but it could be. There are no fundamental technical barriers to overcome, just social ones.

Re: Chevy Volt discontinued: Chevrolet's last Volt rolls off the assembly line

#163

Post by michaelt »

mehrdada wrote: post #155
avs733 wrote: post #18

>It's a true shame, as GM finally got the little details right on both how the engine was put together as well as the interior fit and finish on the 2017 model. Completely agree. I leased a first gen and am now leasing a second gen volt. I'm actually considering buying my current car at the end of the lease. As a bike commuter, it is my only vehicle, which is why I went the hybrid rather than full electric route. The…

> it is my only vehicle, which is why I went the hybrid rather than full electric route. At least in the US, I think you'd be underestimating how much one can rely on a proper fully electric vehicle (i.e. a Tesla, and perhaps Bolt?). I doubt a Model 3 LR holder would ever need a second sedan.

At least in my country, two years ago (presumably when avs733 was buying his car) if you wanted an all-electric vehicle with >150 mile range, you had to spend £90,000 on a Tesla Model S.

All the other manufacturers' cars (Renault Zoe, BMW i3, Nissan Leaf, VW e-Golf) were 145 mile range or less.

It's only recently that EVs like the Hyundai Kona (£30k for 245 miles) and the Jaguar I-Pace (£61k for 235 miles) have come on the market.

Re: Chevy Volt discontinued: Chevrolet's last Volt rolls off the assembly line

#164

Post by cladari »

speedplane wrote: post #147
dd36 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that r&d is a sunk cost and that producing the vehicle is cash flow positive and will be even more so in 5 years, GM should be pedal to the metal. The loss per unit sold is a non-real accounting artifact. Frankly, it should be accounted for on the basis of the carrying cost of the r&d debt. If I open a bakery and buy a ton of expensive equipment, I will have huge accounting losses per cookie for years but I may…

> The loss per unit sold is a non-real accounting artifact. GM can clearly make money from this vehicle if the tighten up their production. I'm sure engineers there know exactly what needs to be done to get there. It probably takes investment, but there will only be a return on the investment if many more Bolts are sold. To sell more of these cars, they have to overcome public perception that they are some weird new…

I think you would see electric cars take off if those without garages or driveways had a way to charge them nightly. I know I would have one on my list. Perhaps use the government buyers incentive to instead give a write down to developers to install charging stations in their parking lots.

Re: Chevy Volt discontinued: Chevrolet's last Volt rolls off the assembly line

#165

Post by davidgould »

jdietrich wrote: post #62
jaytaylor wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what will change between now and 2025 to enable profitability on Bolts?

See page 42 of the source report. UBS and Munro predict a 33% reduction in battery costs due to broader industry pricing trends, with a further reduction of 10-25% on powertrain components due to economies of scale and technology improvements. The report argues that the Bolt is already profitable on a contribution basis (sale price - cost of goods sold), meaning that GM make money on every Bolt they sell. What makes…

> Demand for the Bolt is substantially outstripping supply in Europe, because high fuel costs mean that pure EVs already have a lower TCO than ICE vehicles; It's likely that GM can achieve profitability simply by ramping up production, assuming that their battery suppliers can keep up with demand.

GM does not sell the Bolt in Europe at all. It was originally sold as the Opel Ampera, but GM sold their interest in Opel. So demand in Europe is higher than the non-existent supply.

The Bolts battery and power train come from LG and apparently they contracted for 30,000 units or less annually. This may not be a problem for GM as US Bolt sales have not been great, 23,279 units in 2017, dropping to 18,019 in 2018. I think they have also sold several hundred units in Korea.

Currently Autotrader.com shows several new Bolts near me (California Bay Area) being offered at discounts of more than $4,000 from MSRP. So it looks like demand is soft even with the full Federal tax credit and the California EV rebate. Unfortunately for the Bolt, GM will lose the full Federal tax credit on April 1 raising the price of the Bolt by $3,750.

Personally, I'm disappointed by GM's failure to promote the Bolt and by it's low sales. I love my Chevy Spark EV and I like my Honda Fit, but it seems an overpriced weirder looking Honda Fit with a Chevy badge is not the way forward even if it is electric. I wanted to like the Bolt, it's not a bad car, I really prefer small but tall hatches, and am committed to electric vehicles and like to live frugally. After five great years with the Spark EV I'm not even afraid to buy a GM car. In other words, I'm probably the ideal Bolt customer. Which should make GM very concerned by the fact that I recently bought a Model 3 instead and am selling the Honda.

Re: Chevy Volt discontinued: Chevrolet's last Volt rolls off the assembly line

#166

Post by B1FF_PSUVM »

chipotle_coyote wrote: post #123
hollerith wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, I live in California, and all the signs I see here say $3.something for gas.

I _suspect_ the person you're replying to doesn't live in the United States, given their conspicuous use of "USD". Even the most expensive gasoline in the US is dirt cheap compared to many countries across Europe. According to the somewhat amusingly named globalpetrolprices.com, gas prices in Germany were $5.62/gallon, the UK $5.75/gallon, and Finland $6.07 a gallon. Even in Russia, far and away the cheapest, gas was…

> lower gas taxes

That. In Europe fuel taxes are easily half of the pump price.

Re: Chevy Volt discontinued: Chevrolet's last Volt rolls off the assembly line

#168

Post by jononor »

michaelt wrote: post #163
mehrdada wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it is my only vehicle, which is why I went the hybrid rather than full electric route. At least in the US, I think you'd be underestimating how much one can rely on a proper fully electric vehicle (i.e. a Tesla, and perhaps Bolt?). I doubt a Model 3 LR holder would ever need a second sedan.

At least in my country, two years ago (presumably when avs733 was buying his car) if you wanted an all-electric vehicle with >150 mile range, you had to spend £90,000 on a Tesla Model S. All the other manufacturers' cars (Renault Zoe, BMW i3, Nissan Leaf, VW e-Golf) were 145 mile range or less. It's only recently that EVs like the Hyundai Kona (£30k for 245 miles) and the Jaguar I-Pace (£61k for 235 miles) have come…

150 versus 145 miles is nothing. Why is 150 of all numbers the requirement?

Re: Chevy Volt discontinued: Chevrolet's last Volt rolls off the assembly line

#169

Post by Marazan »

michaelt wrote: post #163
mehrdada wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it is my only vehicle, which is why I went the hybrid rather than full electric route. At least in the US, I think you'd be underestimating how much one can rely on a proper fully electric vehicle (i.e. a Tesla, and perhaps Bolt?). I doubt a Model 3 LR holder would ever need a second sedan.

At least in my country, two years ago (presumably when avs733 was buying his car) if you wanted an all-electric vehicle with >150 mile range, you had to spend £90,000 on a Tesla Model S. All the other manufacturers' cars (Renault Zoe, BMW i3, Nissan Leaf, VW e-Golf) were 145 mile range or less. It's only recently that EVs like the Hyundai Kona (£30k for 245 miles) and the Jaguar I-Pace (£61k for 235 miles) have come…

Greater than 150, as in significantly greater than

Re: Chevy Volt discontinued: Chevrolet's last Volt rolls off the assembly line

#170

Post by davidgould »

landryraccoon wrote: post #53
bsder wrote: post #7

It's a true shame, as GM finally got the little details right on both how the engine was put together as well as the interior fit and finish on the 2017 model. However, it was probably inevitable once batteries got good enough. Removing the combustion engine and replacing it with more batteries probably saves far too much money. The current problem I have with electric vehicles is simply that right now they are "5 ye…

Do you think it's possible that limited run electric cars will be highly valued collectables in the future? I mean, people don't treasure classic cars from the 50s because of their superior technology or features. It's all nostalgia. I wouldn't be surprised if first generation teslas or volts are extremely valuable in 20 years.

I expect Tesla Roadsters to be collectable, but that's about it. Everything else in the early generation lacks sex appeal or were made in enough volume to lack rarity.
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