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America’s Professional Elite: Wealthy, Successful and Miserable

nytimes.com

331–340 of 475 posts

Re: America’s Professional Elite: Wealthy, Successful and Miserable

#331
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you actually dug ditches for a few weeks? It's a popular rhetorical device but I wonder how many engineers have actually done stints of hard labor.

I have, yes. I've also framed homes, roofed homes, and water proofed basements. I spent some time landscaping. I've held a variety of manual labor jobs, from working fields to construction to warehouses and factory floors to the military. Today, I'm a team lead and senior software engineer. I'd also rather be outside again all day, working with and alongside people, physically and towards goals we can visualize, doin…

A stint of physical labor is certainly a valuable experience, I long for it too, but it DOES eventually break the body if it is done year after year for decades.

I suspect that years of meaningless work just shuffling money around for wealthy people and institutions has a similar effect on the psyche, even if it is obscenely compensated.

Re: America’s Professional Elite: Wealthy, Successful and Miserable

#332

I think we're focusing on the wrong thing here (broadly), which is mocking the guy making $1.2m a year. Yes, that's a lot of money, and almost all of us (myself included) struggle to see how to spend that money. But at the same time, I feel some empathy for that guy - he's increased his expenses proportionally and he feels trapped doing something he doesn't enjoy with no end in sight. I know I've moved my expenses up…

The crux of feeling trapped from increasing expenses with your income usually comes down to loans that you have to continue to pay off (or a contractual obligation). It's one of the reasons a lot of people see value in paying off their home earlier even though stock market investments are usually the better long term bet.

There's a degree of freedom that comes from knowing your cost of living can essentially be utilities and food if your income was suddenly interrupted.

Re: America’s Professional Elite: Wealthy, Successful and Miserable

#333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more than that. People need purpose. That's why things like UBI are a pipe-dream. Any Fortune-500 executive could live a life of leisure with 2-3 years of planning. They tend to not make that choice.

On the contrary, UBI would free people to leave the jobs that feel meaningless, and do things they are passionate about. If the problem is that people need purpose, what better than a system that allows people to find purpose, rather than one that keeps them trapped doing work they hate?

Remember how the internet was supposed to bring people together, enhance the spreading and sharing of ideas, bring knowledge and information to everybody? Not many people predicted it'd end up with people going into echo chambers, spreading misinformation about one another, and helping to drive a wedge in society so extreme that an increasingly large chunk of society (myself not included) believe it will culminate in civil war [1]? Can't win 'em all I guess.

The point I'm making here is that we shouldn't play the naive game twice. Give people free money and an extra ~10 hours a day with no obligations to anybody. This isn't going to bring in some utopia of people pursuing wonderful new interests and ideas they always really wanted to, but were just held back by socioeconomic obstacles.

So let's think about realistic predictions. I mean I do agree with you people would be looking for purpose. Companies would be quick to try to provide this purpose by providing the most addictive, immersive, and life destroying games ever -- even the most hardcore WoW player would blush at what we'd have in store there. We'd also probably see people finding purpose similar to how we already do online. Imagine Twitter outrage mobs. Except now since people have no obligations and really nothing to do, there's a very good chance this would spill into the streets and likely in quite high numbers. 'Hey let's come protest against [xyz] in LA on the 17th!' 'Whoa, sounds like fun. Btw, no idea what [xyz] is, fill me in then?' 'Sure, not so clear myself tbh!'

Ooo and then the inevitable happens. There'd be another group, also looking for purpose, that now decides to counter protest. And these 'meetings' would be immense. There'd suddenly be thousands to millions of people with nothing to do and no obligations showing up to face off against each other to try to find some sort of purpose and meaning in life. No worries. I'm sure they'll just come together, spread and share ideas, and bring knowledge and information to one another.

Well at least everybody could come together in nonstop protests demanding that the basic income should be increased.

[1] - http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/gene...

Re: America’s Professional Elite: Wealthy, Successful and Miserable

#334
post #17

The rich are depressed, the middle-class is shrinking and fearful, the poor are hopeless. I'm gonna take a leap here and say maybe people need some religion in their lives to give direction and meaning. I found it interesting that a person in the article who made $1.2M a year was still depressed in thinking they were wasting their lives and it was all meaningless. I ask myself, does this person have children? a famil…

Because a 10% tithe is definitely something the shrinking middle class and the hopeless lower class can afford. But putting that aside this sentiment of "look how bad things seem for people, religion can help" reeks of predatory behavior. If none turn towards whatever god you preach in times of plenty then what is left? To strike in a moment of weakness? To shift blame from whatever problems could be solved to instea…

I think there are some misconceptions of "Religion" here. I will readily admit that there are some cases where it has been used for predatory behavior, but one cannot generalize that.

I can vouch that many churches do not treat the tithe as an "entrance fee" and honestly many have no idea how much you make or force you to give that. More-so, it is up to the person to decide how much to give be it 1% or 50%.

I personally believe in God, I think there is enough evidence to point that direction. However, even if I were to not believe this way, I honestly feel that my lifestyle as a result is more fulfilling and enjoyable. As a result, I regularly get together with like-minded people from a variety of backgrounds and occupations that I probably would have never met otherwise, which has resulted in some of my closest friendships. I regularly get together with others in our homes for Bible study and "just hanging out" (fellowship in "Church words"). This small group of people has been instrumental in each others' lives when things are stressful by helping each other out (providing meals, childcare, or simply a listening ear).

My children also have a group of friends and an organization that aids me in helping teach a moral compass and values that are overall advantageous to our society, such as generosity, politeness, putting others first, being helpful, among other faith-oriented traits as well. This can stand as contrasts to some of the traits our children commonly see in our society or in various media forms (advertising, etc).

As far as tithing, I currently probably am "a bit below" 10%, though I'd like to increase it over time, because to me the value in my life and the value I see being provided to others makes it worth it. But I do not feel obligated to give.

While all these things potentially could be replicated in the "secular world," there is little incentive for people to become dedicated to it, and this is why by-in-large it is not replicated. The "organized" part of organized religion I think is the key here.

Also as contrast to the "predatory behavior" you speak of, a very large portion of the aid provided the poor or "less desirable in society" is provided by religious organizations (food banks, homeless shelters, etc). Many of these, because of their religious convictions and the convictions of their supporters are able to provide more services, more personal care, and more impactful results for much less money than many of the government initiatives. To be clear, I'm not proposing we get rid of the government initiatives. I'm mostly pointing out that in many cases, if practiced in alignment with the values they teach, religious activities are the opposite of predatory.

Re: America’s Professional Elite: Wealthy, Successful and Miserable

#335
post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2.5MM will not let you draw $100,000 for 50 years with inflation. That’s a great number for retiring at 65. But this thread is talking about working hard for 5 years and retiring super early.

Assuming a 4% return, 2.5MM absolutely does yield 100k per year, forever. Yes inflation will eat away at the value of that 100k over time, but that's less of a problem if you own your home and have something left over each year to reinvest.

> have something left over each year to reinvest.

Right. So my question is how much can you withdraw to indefinitely draw the same inflation adjusted value?

Re: America’s Professional Elite: Wealthy, Successful and Miserable

#336
The trick is to not fall into the trap of spending all the money you're making. Make a budget of how much you spend on rent, bills, and fun things, and don't bump it up each time you get a raise or a new job. Eventually, you'll find you're saving a lot of money. That gives you freedom and flexibility.

Re: America’s Professional Elite: Wealthy, Successful and Miserable

#337
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this is your thesis you’ll have to explain how e.g. Communism totally did not have this problem.

I don't see how that follows but I'll answer anyway. One main difference is that the economic gains in a hypothetical alternate economic system could be distributed to you, your peers, and the needy in a more humane fashion instead of the majority of the gains concentrating to the elite.

What is this hypothetical system like, and how is it different from the ones that have been tried, whose proponents would describe in a way similar to what you just said, but have been shown to have the same emptiness problem you attribute to capitalism (as well as some others, like mass murder and economic collapse)?

Re: America’s Professional Elite: Wealthy, Successful and Miserable

#338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this type of Census data understates household incomes. I am not exactly sure why, but Atherton comes in at about 400k a year per household. That is a lot, but doesn't seem like a lot for Atherton.

I believe it is skewed since many people in these neighborhoods aren't making their money through salary income (anymore), but instead through interest / dividends. If you sold your company, aren't working at FB/goog/etc and are sitting on a ton of stock holdings, your income is going to show as near $0

that should be accounted for in govt household income calculations, but I could be wrong. For example, ton of stock holdings will pay you dividends or capital gains.

Re: America’s Professional Elite: Wealthy, Successful and Miserable

#339
post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this type of Census data understates household incomes. I am not exactly sure why, but Atherton comes in at about 400k a year per household. That is a lot, but doesn't seem like a lot for Atherton.

I can't find the $400k/year number anywhere. The census puts it at "$250,001" which seems like a fishy number.

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-hundred-richest-plac...

Re: America’s Professional Elite: Wealthy, Successful and Miserable

#340
post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you assume people who are living paycheck to paycheck to be people that are just don't know how to manage their finances. If so, you would be massively wrong. Most people living paycheck to paycheck are people that usually got a horrible start at life with some bad luck thrown in. Maybe raised by a single parent who couldn't give the extra attention, so they fell behind in school. Maybe people who sickly as k…

Yes, but we aren't talking about poor people in this article. We are talking about people who earn a lot of money. In the parent comment I start by talking about a guy who's earning $1.2m a year.

Right it's in the title: "America’s Professional Elite: Wealthy, Successful and Miserable"
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