America’s Professional Elite: Wealthy, Successful and Miserable • Hacker News Board

Re: America’s Professional Elite: Wealthy, Successful and Miserable

#311

Post by potatofarmer45 » Thu, Feb 21, 2019, 7:50 PM UTC

I have a lot of friends who originally went into finance in college to "save up" and then pursue their dreams. But once they started living the good life, things changed.

Before you know it, they have a gf/wife who expects the best. An expensive apartment in NYC with a great view they don't have the time to enjoy. And a job that's really a cage because they are addicted to the pay and they know if they leave, they won't be able to make the same amount of money.

It seems the longer you're in the system, the harder it is to leave and be willing to let go of that 5th avenue penthouse with stunning views and the "girlfriend who is hotter than the wildest dreams" or "dream artist boyfriend about to make his break". Sad but true

Re: America’s Professional Elite: Wealthy, Successful and Miserable

#312

Post by sonnyblarney » Thu, Feb 21, 2019, 7:50 PM UTC

QualityReboot wrote: post #64

I just don't understand this at all. If you can earn a million a year, do it for 3-5 years, never have to work again, and pursue your passions in life. I think the problem for most workers is the lifetime of toil, not the meaninglessness of the work. I'd happily dig ditches for 8-12 hours a day for 3 years if I knew I was completely financially independent with millions in the bank that. Actually, I'd rather do that…

It's not that easy.

'High status' jobs in many ways entail a 'high status' lifestyle.

Example: they got the jobs in the first place as the result of their parents ability to pay for private school, and Ivy League. So in that lifestyle context, you're going to be doing the same thing, it's part of the cycle. Very expensive.

Partners in law firms or consultancies are really in sales. They are using their business relationships to position themselves as thoughtful, successful, excellent pedigree etc..

For the same reason that real estate salespeople who drive people around a lot tend to drive nice cars, many folks in high end careers have no choice but to live that lifestyle.

When you go out for dinner with business associates, you're not going to talk about the deal you got at the dollar store, rather, your golf game, the new club you got, your trip to Pebble beach. If there is any chance anyone will see you in your car, it cannot be jalopi. Telling people about your trip to Davos would be more than ideal.

There are very few fields where high end folks can get away with not quite living that lifestyle. Some doctors, dentists, business owners can do that. People in tech, of course can life alt-lifestyles.

It's not to say that a Director of trading at some big bank couldn't really skimp in stuff either, but it's hard to avoid the expectations of lifestyle.

'Career progress' in may of these fields entails a lot of signalling, and such signalling can be expensive. "I have three kids, so proud they all made it into Ivy League". That's a very powerful signalling statement, and a massively expensive one!

Taxes on regular income are high, and expenses add up - and having a 'fairly comfortable retirement' is not cheap.

I'm not entirely sympathetic to these people, because they do make choices - my point is that they are not living a 'regular lifestyle', their careers often have expensive lifestyles 'baked in' to the process.

Also: "They talked about missed promotions, disaffected children and billable hours in divorce court. They complained about jobs that were unfulfilling, tedious or just plain bad."

I think maybe we all have this, and when the numbers, cars and suits get nicer, those problems don't go away. In many ways, the risks are bigger.

If your company falls flat it can ruin you. A carpenter can usually get work, as can most decent devs.

Re: America’s Professional Elite: Wealthy, Successful and Miserable

#313

Post by scottnyc » Thu, Feb 21, 2019, 7:52 PM UTC

kurthr wrote: post #99

naravara wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>what world are these people living in that you can't give up a job that you hate because you can't afford to live on 500-600k. The one where you lock into a mortgage and a car that assumes a $1.2M salary to keep ahead of. It's really easy to let your lifestyle expenses balloon, especially in a high-COL city where minor increases in living space/amenities can end up costing large amounts of money.

Yeah... I literally don't buy it. High Cost of Living city has nothing to do with needing $500k/yr in earnings (post tax). What kind of mortgage and car do you have that? Simple answer... that's a $10M house or a $2M car or half of each of those. Besides the fact that if you're earning $1.2M salary, you're taking home other bonus/stock that are comparable. Getting locked into this sort of lifestyle is a choice not dr…

Article says friend is in Manhattan and earned (i.e. total comp) $1.2mm. Very unusual for anyone in finance to have that high a salary short of being a CEO earning $10mm+.

Suppose he lives on the UWS in a 2000 square foot 3-4 bedroom condo which he bought for $4mm and has a $3mm mortgage. With a 30year fixed mortgage, that's maybe $180k a year. Don't forget the $60+k a year in condo fees and taxes. Throw in anywhere from $40-80k for nanny/childcare/preschool for the 1-2 kids he may have and you already have nothing left over if he went to a $600k comp.

I'm not saying he can't choose to live more conservatively, but when you're used to making $1.2mm a year, it's not hard to imagine how he got here. High cost of living does play a part, especially in NYC.

Re: America’s Professional Elite: Wealthy, Successful and Miserable

#314

Post by HashHishBang » Thu, Feb 21, 2019, 7:52 PM UTC

3minus1 wrote: post #297

HashHishBang wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because a 10% tithe is definitely something the shrinking middle class and the hopeless lower class can afford. But putting that aside this sentiment of "look how bad things seem for people, religion can help" reeks of predatory behavior. If none turn towards whatever god you preach in times of plenty then what is left? To strike in a moment of weakness? To shift blame from whatever problems could be solved to instea…

There's no denomination or sect that actually tithes 10% on average. There was a freakonomics episode about it. There was as researcher who found that certain donominations tithe more or less but none reached 10%.

I currently live in Utah which, for those who don't know, is predominately of Mormon faith. While those rates aren't published for some pretty clear reasons the overwhelming majority of individuals I've spoken to within the industry tithe at or above 10%. Granted this is the tech industry so middle class and above is common but it is pretty much a requirement to be an active member of the church.

This 1980 statement from the church is an interesting one and the sentiment seems to me mostly unchanged from my admittedly outside viewpoint. https://www.lds.org/study/ensign/1980/06/concerning-tithing?...

Re: America’s Professional Elite: Wealthy, Successful and Miserable

#315

Post by ojbyrne » Thu, Feb 21, 2019, 7:53 PM UTC

InitialLastName wrote: post #264

adamredwoods wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putting kids through school, paying for parent's mortgage, vacation properties, country club dues.

> country club dues > vacation properties I'm glad there's a "stupid tax" for wealthy people too.

You're likely not going to get that $1.2 million job unless you "travel in the same circles" as the people hiring.

Re: America’s Professional Elite: Wealthy, Successful and Miserable

#316

Post by aynsof » Thu, Feb 21, 2019, 7:59 PM UTC

BucketSort wrote: post #231

mactrey wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is true but also people come to care about what they do. They may not be "passionate" about work but it is what they spend the most time doing, it is their main source of daily challenge and problem solving, it represents social interaction, and it is their main source of pride and accomplishment and personal striving. To just up and leave work leaves a huge void in their lives. People can learn to fill that voi…

I said that because the parent comment said "I just don't understand this at all. If you can earn a million a year, do it for 3-5 years, never have to work again, and pursue your passions in life." They don't have those passions in life per say and fill that void with work and other things. You are actually echoing what I'm saying in your own way. Also, I like how people bring up gardening sometimes when passion is d…

When I think of 'passion', I think of creating things, making things better, doing something that can bring me into a state of flow. I'm not an avid gardener, but I can absolutely see how gardening would tick those boxes for someone who was.

Re: America’s Professional Elite: Wealthy, Successful and Miserable

#317

Post by itronitron » Thu, Feb 21, 2019, 7:59 PM UTC

axaxs wrote: post #296

scruple wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have, yes. I've also framed homes, roofed homes, and water proofed basements. I spent some time landscaping. I've held a variety of manual labor jobs, from working fields to construction to warehouses and factory floors to the military. Today, I'm a team lead and senior software engineer. I'd also rather be outside again all day, working with and alongside people, physically and towards goals we can visualize, doin…

Almost in the -exact- same boat, as if I could have written this comment myself. My favorite job, by far, was landscaping. Being outside all day, getting sun and exercise, and seeing your completed project were all very rewarding/valuable. I was in great shape, left work at work, and had no problem sleeping at night. It just doesn't pay well. I find working at computers all day rather depressing, at times pointless,…

>> I really wish there was some kind of middle ground.

I think there is a market for a large, physically demanding computer keyboard. The keyboard 'keys' would require pressure from a full hand to activate, and the return and backspace keys could have a different type of lever action (pull to the side maybe). The operator would have to stand, which seems like a trend these days, and the PRO-version could come with a large inverted water bottle. Not joking about the keyboard, only half-joking about the bottle.

Re: America’s Professional Elite: Wealthy, Successful and Miserable

#318

Post by derp_dee_derp » Thu, Feb 21, 2019, 7:59 PM UTC

nimonian wrote: post #136

Murdoch wrote: post #17

The rich are depressed, the middle-class is shrinking and fearful, the poor are hopeless. I'm gonna take a leap here and say maybe people need some religion in their lives to give direction and meaning. I found it interesting that a person in the article who made $1.2M a year was still depressed in thinking they were wasting their lives and it was all meaningless. I ask myself, does this person have children? a famil…

> maybe people need some religion in their lives to give direction and meaning I can't just accept dogma because I'm miserable. I can't just say 2+2=5 even if it would make me feel better. Religion isn't something you can just pick up like pilates. If life is inherently without meaning or direction, I'd rather go with that and be true to myself than refract the universe through some doctrine I understand to be false.…

dude religion isn't just dogma. Its also the collected wisdom of untold generations about how to live and not live your life. The stuff religion recommends, on average, works to make people's lives better for those who practice it.

our society has completely thrown the baby out with the bathwater when we arbitrarily decided that all organized religions are bad and that God doesn't exist.

Re: America’s Professional Elite: Wealthy, Successful and Miserable

#319

Post by seem_2211 » Thu, Feb 21, 2019, 8:01 PM UTC

DonnyV wrote: post #301

seem_2211 wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are saving towards financial independence you have the luxury of choosing if you'd like to be your own boss, or indeed if you'd like a job that pays less. Most people are living paycheck to paycheck, but those are not the people who are saving for FI.

I think you assume people who are living paycheck to paycheck to be people that are just don't know how to manage their finances. If so, you would be massively wrong. Most people living paycheck to paycheck are people that usually got a horrible start at life with some bad luck thrown in. Maybe raised by a single parent who couldn't give the extra attention, so they fell behind in school. Maybe people who sickly as k…

Yes, but we aren't talking about poor people in this article. We are talking about people who earn a lot of money. In the parent comment I start by talking about a guy who's earning $1.2m a year.

Re: America’s Professional Elite: Wealthy, Successful and Miserable

#320

Post by jondubois » Thu, Feb 21, 2019, 8:02 PM UTC

seppin wrote: post #247

cryptica wrote: post #235

>> If you spend 12 hours a day doing work you hate, at some point it doesn’t matter what your paycheck says Bullshit. If someone earns $1.2 million per year, they can retire after 2 or 3 years. They have no right to complain. They're weak. $1.2 million is the definition of eternal happiness. If you earn that, whatever emotion you feel in your life is called happiness. This emotion which their greedy brains interpret…

> Bullshit. If someone earns $1.2 million per year, they can retire after 2 or 3 years. They have no right to complain. They're weak. that's the point, lifestyle creep means you hang out only with people that earn that too. it becomes normal, average even. and you can't dare step away

If it costs so much happiness to be around such people, I would stop seeing them because no human relationship could possibly be worth even a tiny fraction of that kind of happiness. That is some serious happiness.

How could a relationship with a person deplete the kind of profound, intrinsic, highly quantifiable joy that this kind of money brings? I can't imagine any kind of relationship which could do that for me.