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Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

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Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#51

Post by Tuna-Fish »

Strom wrote: post #38
yeahforsureman wrote: post #17

What the hell, where's Sweden and Denmark? Or the much-hyped E-stonia? (Not that it would've made a difference.)

The lack of Estonia seemed curious to me as well, given Estonia's voting history regarding Article 13. Then I looked up the voting history for all these countries. [1] The votes against Article 13 have been as follows: Poland 72% (36 vs 14) Netherlands 71% (17 vs 7) Finland 50% (6 vs 6) Italy 38% (25 vs 41) Luxembourg 33% (2 vs 4) Sweden 100% (18 vs 0) Estonia 83% (5 vs 1) Denmark 17% (2 vs 10) Looking at this frankl…

What you are looking at are the views of the MEPs. MEPs represent specific people living in the country, not the country as whole. This statement was issued by the countries, meaning the representatives of the governments currently in power in those countries.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#52

Post by aikah »

DubiousPusher wrote: post #16
citilife wrote: post #6

The issue I see with the EU, is that it's essentially centralizing all the "countries" into "states". Where by, each of the states will simply answer to the two countries with the most power. Namely Germany, followed by France. Personally, I think it's sad. It's as if we're watching the destruction of all the national identities. Only to be centralized by powers who are only interested in their own national identity.…

The pedestal contemporary people put national identity on is just that, contemporary. National identities didn't arise naturally. Many of them were very thoughtfully and intentionally invented. For most of human history, the idea that people over a geography the size of Engalnd would see themselves as one people would've been ridiculous. It's really only in the last 200-400 years that people have accepted the nation…

> The pedestal contemporary people put national identity on is just that, contemporary.

As opposed to the pedestal people put supra national institutions such as the EU? Rome? Napoleon's Empire? all failed eventually.

> National identities didn't arise naturally.

Neither did the European Union. All societies are man made constructs, what your point?

> It's only our contemporary bias that tells us that the subordination of the political will of the hamlet to the nation is good and that the subordination of the national will to a continental or regional will is bad.

Well, the EU is more power concentrated in the hands of fewer people. By nature it will always be less democratic than governance at a smaller scale. And these structures tend to seek even more power as time goes, not less.

What is better? more tyranny,bureaucracy or more democracy?

Ignoring local cultures and socio-economics specificities by trying to impose arbitrary rules to an entire continent? In that case there will always be winners and losers.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#53

Post by deogeo »

DubiousPusher wrote: post #16
citilife wrote: post #6

The issue I see with the EU, is that it's essentially centralizing all the "countries" into "states". Where by, each of the states will simply answer to the two countries with the most power. Namely Germany, followed by France. Personally, I think it's sad. It's as if we're watching the destruction of all the national identities. Only to be centralized by powers who are only interested in their own national identity.…

The pedestal contemporary people put national identity on is just that, contemporary. National identities didn't arise naturally. Many of them were very thoughtfully and intentionally invented. For most of human history, the idea that people over a geography the size of Engalnd would see themselves as one people would've been ridiculous. It's really only in the last 200-400 years that people have accepted the nation…

> the idea that people over a geography the size of Engalnd would see themselves as one people would've been ridiculous

Yet they were related people, ethnically, linguistically, and culturally. It's like saying the idea of a family would've been ridiculous, because brothers used to fight and bicker.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#54

Post by lawn »

beefield wrote: post #31
lawn wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Swede this is exactly why I'm against the EU. Free trade is great, I get that, but I really don't like the centralization and getting less and less influence. I don't want Germany and France to shove idiotic internet laws down my throat. In some way it's also why I'm rooting for U.K. to leave the EU and for it to work out.

Just wondering, what exactly makes you think the laws shoved to your throat by Sweden would on average be any less idiotic? And why would just Sweden be the right size of entity that optimizes the idiocy of the laws, why independent Skåne would not be shoving less idiotic laws to your throat?

I'm under the illusion it's easier to influence a Swedish politician than it is to influence an order of magnitude more foreign politicians, to get the same proportion of influence.

The problem will always be there of course. I'm not saying Sweden is the optimal size, I just find it better than the EU alternative.

If you go to the extreme you can get too small as well. For example a society with a couple of thousand people is too small to form what's essentially a country. There is no clear cut answer.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#55

Post by isostatic »

Tuna-Fish wrote: post #51
Strom wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lack of Estonia seemed curious to me as well, given Estonia's voting history regarding Article 13. Then I looked up the voting history for all these countries. [1] The votes against Article 13 have been as follows: Poland 72% (36 vs 14) Netherlands 71% (17 vs 7) Finland 50% (6 vs 6) Italy 38% (25 vs 41) Luxembourg 33% (2 vs 4) Sweden 100% (18 vs 0) Estonia 83% (5 vs 1) Denmark 17% (2 vs 10) Looking at this frankl…

What you are looking at are the views of the MEPs. MEPs represent specific people living in the country, not the country as whole. This statement was issued by the countries , meaning the representatives of the governments currently in power in those countries.

Of the listed countries, 6 of the 8 - Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Sweden, Estonia and Denmark - are all 1 constituency countries, so the MEPs represent the entire country

MEPs may well decide different things to the government though, just as the U.S. House could have a different view to the Senate.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#56

Post by isostatic »

kfwhp wrote: post #49
pjc50 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because, despite what people say, the countries of the EU are distinct countries with their own legal systems.

That is true and, at the same time, the EU is forcing all countries to implement this directive into their law, whether they want it or not. There are 8 countries that don't want it, but they can't oppose.

Every country in the EU agreed to implement these directives when they joined the EU, whether they agreed to it or not. There were various stipulations on how much support there needed to be before everyone had to implement them. Some things need unanimous support (trade deals, accession), some countries have certain opts outs in certain areas

However when it comes to harmonizing copyright legislation it was agreed unaminously that 65% of the EU population, plus 55% of the EU countries, could implement laws that are binding on the rest.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#57

Post by NeedMoreTea »

deogeo wrote: post #53
DubiousPusher wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pedestal contemporary people put national identity on is just that, contemporary. National identities didn't arise naturally. Many of them were very thoughtfully and intentionally invented. For most of human history, the idea that people over a geography the size of Engalnd would see themselves as one people would've been ridiculous. It's really only in the last 200-400 years that people have accepted the nation…

> the idea that people over a geography the size of Engalnd would see themselves as one people would've been ridiculous Yet they were related people, ethnically, linguistically, and culturally. It's like saying the idea of a family would've been ridiculous, because brothers used to fight and bicker.

Not that related. Conquered and homogenised. Some of today's regional identities and dialects can be seen in this 1,100 year old map.

Britain after Alfred's restoration of London: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Britain_886.jpg

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#58

Post by isostatic »

sc11 wrote: post #23
avar wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not at all what's happening. Structurally, those big countries can easily get outvoted, and to change EU law it needs to be proposed by the commission, which is voted in by the council, where all member states have an equal vote. It then needs to be passed by the parliament, where votes are proportional to population. There Germany and France have the most members, but just over 1/5 of the overall membership.…

> It then needs to be passed by the parliament, where votes are proportional to population. Votes in the parliament aren't directly proportional to population in order to prevent large countries from dominating votes. Germany has 1 MEP per ~855k citizens, France ~870k while smaller countries like Belgium or Ireland have 1 MEP per 400-500k citizens.

That's pretty much the same in any country. In the UK constituencies go from 22k to 110k.

In the U.S. congressional districts range from 500k to 1 million.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#59

Post by isostatic »

dingaling wrote: post #50
pslam wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You win at right wing talking-points bingo. The whole point of the EU is that Europe is better when it's together. There were multiple wars, involving the death of many millions, and that's just the last hundred years. Independence is just dressed up nationalism, and all the ugly facets it is made of.

> There were multiple wars, involving the death of many millions, and that's just the last hundred years. Of which the EU has existed for just 27 years. For the 70 years of its existence NATO has been a strong bond and influence, with the exception of the Turkish invasion of Cyprus it has prevented violent conflict between its members. And it didn't require integration of forces; it published standards for commonalit…

The road to the EU began in 1951, a mere 6 years after ww2 ended. Integration has increased more and more since then.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#60

Post by isostatic »

zapnuk wrote: post #19
citilife wrote: post #6

The issue I see with the EU, is that it's essentially centralizing all the "countries" into "states". Where by, each of the states will simply answer to the two countries with the most power. Namely Germany, followed by France. Personally, I think it's sad. It's as if we're watching the destruction of all the national identities. Only to be centralized by powers who are only interested in their own national identity.…

> The issue I see with the EU, is that it's essentially centralizing all the "countries" into "states". Where by, each of the states will simply answer to the two countries with the most power. Namely Germany, followed by France. The commission consists of one commissioner per country. The parlement has (currenlty) 705 seats. Germany is represented by 96, and france by 79 seats. On paper it is entirely possible for s…

> The commission consists of one commissioner per country

However they don't work for the country.

I guess the closest analogy for the U.S. would be the white house - but where the president is elected by the electoral college (in the E.U it's by the council, although that's just a rubber stamp based on the party who gets the highest number of votes in the equivelent of House vote)

However instead of the president choosing heads of department himself, he gets to choose from 28 people sent from each countries.

The "U.S. Senate" equivalent is the council, where every country gets 1 vote, regardless of size.

To get things passed through the Council, a double majority needs to happen - both a number (55% of countries I think) and a population (countries representing 65% of the population). This ensures that small countries can't gang up on large ones, and vice versa.

Imagine the U.S. senate, where you need 55 votes to pass, and that can't just be from states like Wyoming and Vermont, but would have to include at least a couple of states like California or Florida.

Then to pass into law, it also has to pass through the MEPs, who represent the voters of the EU (rather than the governments), in a roughly proportional manner.

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