Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive • Hacker News Board

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#11

Post by DelightOne » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 5:24 PM UTC

Someone wrote: post #5

gpm wrote: post #2

What does this mean procedurally? Is this a veto? A statement that is likely to effect an upcoming vote?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_on_Copyright_in_the_... : ”At this point, the text will be reviewed by the European Parliament Committee on Legal Affairs, and then presented to the full European Parliament for a vote. Should the vote succeed, then each of the EU's member states have up to 24 months to introduce laws within their own countries to support the Directive.” So, this is a statement “we believe the…

> introduce laws within their own countries to support the Directive.

Why so complicated? It seems a bad idea to have 28 different laws which generally say the same thing but with possibly small differences so it gets a minefield. No wonder EU is a difficult market. Who possibly thought that's a good idea?

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#12

Post by raverbashing » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 5:28 PM UTC

citilife wrote: post #6

The issue I see with the EU, is that it's essentially centralizing all the "countries" into "states". Where by, each of the states will simply answer to the two countries with the most power. Namely Germany, followed by France. Personally, I think it's sad. It's as if we're watching the destruction of all the national identities. Only to be centralized by powers who are only interested in their own national identity.…

> It's as if we're watching the destruction of all the national identities.

Apart from all its faults and goals, if there's one thing the EU (the institution) is less likely to touch is national identities (Merkel "wir shaffen das" nonetheless), but usually protects it, especially in the form of national products

Oh and the "strong national identity" of the UK comes across often more as a lack of willing to modernize and adapt as just wanting to keep a national identity.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#13

Post by pslam » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 5:33 PM UTC

citilife wrote: post #6

The issue I see with the EU, is that it's essentially centralizing all the "countries" into "states". Where by, each of the states will simply answer to the two countries with the most power. Namely Germany, followed by France. Personally, I think it's sad. It's as if we're watching the destruction of all the national identities. Only to be centralized by powers who are only interested in their own national identity.…

You win at right wing talking-points bingo.

The whole point of the EU is that Europe is better when it's together. There were multiple wars, involving the death of many millions, and that's just the last hundred years.

Independence is just dressed up nationalism, and all the ugly facets it is made of.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#14

Post by tnolet » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 5:34 PM UTC

citilife wrote: post #6

The issue I see with the EU, is that it's essentially centralizing all the "countries" into "states". Where by, each of the states will simply answer to the two countries with the most power. Namely Germany, followed by France. Personally, I think it's sad. It's as if we're watching the destruction of all the national identities. Only to be centralized by powers who are only interested in their own national identity.…

> Personally, I think it's sad. It's as if we're watching the destruction of all the national identities.

Ha, that gave me a good chuckle. When in Europe, I would be happy to take you of a tour and show you how vastly different people live, behave and think just in the patch of land between France, The Netherlands and Germany. (I am Dutch, live in Germany and my folks live in France, so I claim at least some experience).

You will quickly see national identities are well and alive, regardless of EU centralization.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#15

Post by avar » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 5:35 PM UTC

citilife wrote: post #6

The issue I see with the EU, is that it's essentially centralizing all the "countries" into "states". Where by, each of the states will simply answer to the two countries with the most power. Namely Germany, followed by France. Personally, I think it's sad. It's as if we're watching the destruction of all the national identities. Only to be centralized by powers who are only interested in their own national identity.…

This is not at all what's happening. Structurally, those big countries can easily get outvoted, and to change EU law it needs to be proposed by the commission, which is voted in by the council, where all member states have an equal vote.

It then needs to be passed by the parliament, where votes are proportional to population. There Germany and France have the most members, but just over 1/5 of the overall membership.

What actually happens is that all the other states also want these policies, and then when their electorate doesn't like it they say "the big bad EU made us do it!". This is in no small part the cause for Brexit.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#16

Post by DubiousPusher » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 5:36 PM UTC

citilife wrote: post #6

The issue I see with the EU, is that it's essentially centralizing all the "countries" into "states". Where by, each of the states will simply answer to the two countries with the most power. Namely Germany, followed by France. Personally, I think it's sad. It's as if we're watching the destruction of all the national identities. Only to be centralized by powers who are only interested in their own national identity.…

The pedestal contemporary people put national identity on is just that, contemporary. National identities didn't arise naturally. Many of them were very thoughtfully and intentionally invented. For most of human history, the idea that people over a geography the size of Engalnd would see themselves as one people would've been ridiculous.

It's really only in the last 200-400 years that people have accepted the nation as their identifying place. Previously people's place identity came the much smaller geography of their county, kingdom, principality or hamlet. Joining these smaller identities into larger national identities was a big win that came with many benefits. Of course it meant that these places had to give up some autonomy. Just as there are many benefits of nations giving up some autonomy to act collectively in a regional power structure.

It's only our contemporary bias that tells us that the subordination of the political will of the hamlet to the nation is good and that the subordination of the national will to a continental or regional will is bad.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#17

Post by yeahforsureman » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 5:37 PM UTC

What the hell, where's Sweden and Denmark? Or the much-hyped E-stonia? (Not that it would've made a difference.)

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#18

Post by riffraff » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 5:37 PM UTC

DelightOne wrote: post #11

Someone wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_on_Copyright_in_the_... : ”At this point, the text will be reviewed by the European Parliament Committee on Legal Affairs, and then presented to the full European Parliament for a vote. Should the vote succeed, then each of the EU's member states have up to 24 months to introduce laws within their own countries to support the Directive.” So, this is a statement “we believe the…

> introduce laws within their own countries to support the Directive. Why so complicated? It seems a bad idea to have 28 different laws which generally say the same thing but with possibly small differences so it gets a minefield. No wonder EU is a difficult market. Who possibly thought that's a good idea?

each country has a different legal system, trying to make a single legislation is _really_ hard and generally not worth it. Some countries never ratify the directives either.

That's why GDPR (which is a regulation, not a directive) was such a big deal, but it came years after there was a data protection directive, allowing the systems to harmonize.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#19

Post by zapnuk » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 5:40 PM UTC

citilife wrote: post #6

The issue I see with the EU, is that it's essentially centralizing all the "countries" into "states". Where by, each of the states will simply answer to the two countries with the most power. Namely Germany, followed by France. Personally, I think it's sad. It's as if we're watching the destruction of all the national identities. Only to be centralized by powers who are only interested in their own national identity.…

> The issue I see with the EU, is that it's essentially centralizing all the "countries" into "states". Where by, each of the states will simply answer to the two countries with the most power. Namely Germany, followed by France.

The commission consists of one commissioner per country. The parlement has (currenlty) 705 seats. Germany is represented by 96, and france by 79 seats.

On paper it is entirely possible for smaller countries to stick together and work against the interests of germany and/or france. If they don't I assume that it's because they get an economic benefit as a compansation in exchange.

I don't agree with your take on national identies at all. I don't think national identities have changed (much) in the last 20 years and I doubt they will in the near future.

If they do won't be due to too much EU, it will be because the EU institutions/mechanics are too weak+slow and cannot address problems at hand. Similar to the rather slow reaction to the migrant crises.

However, this won't be an EU specific problem. We see similar problems in the UK and US (and other EU countries) where political parties are too divided that they are seemingly unable to work together and solve (pressing) problems.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#20

Post by lawn » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 5:41 PM UTC

citilife wrote: post #6

The issue I see with the EU, is that it's essentially centralizing all the "countries" into "states". Where by, each of the states will simply answer to the two countries with the most power. Namely Germany, followed by France. Personally, I think it's sad. It's as if we're watching the destruction of all the national identities. Only to be centralized by powers who are only interested in their own national identity.…

As a Swede this is exactly why I'm against the EU.

Free trade is great, I get that, but I really don't like the centralization and getting less and less influence. I don't want Germany and France to shove idiotic internet laws down my throat.

In some way it's also why I'm rooting for U.K. to leave the EU and for it to work out.